Thinking out-loud...

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by Seggy

The resources ALPA offers to the pilot groups are second to none. I can go on and on about that, but hopefully that answers your question.

Understood.

And again this is someone from the outside looking in, ALPA seems to have very good resources. Many of you have said this and it seems like really reliable second hand information.

However QoL, Work Rules, & Pay Blows.

It seems as if a single unionized work force would help the effort. It just seems that all airlines going one way or the other would be next to impossible unless ALPA was absorbed. Crazy as it may sound I'm just brainstorming whether it makes sense or not. It would also be nice to see IBT at the CFI random 91 level which I don't really see ALPA touching. I could be seriously wrong.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by jhugz

However QoL, Work Rules, & Pay Blows.

So what are you going to do sit around or try to make it better? How could the IBT fix this?

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by jhugz

It would also be nice to see IBT at the CFI random 91 level which I don't really see ALPA touching. I could be seriously wrong.

You called the IBT 747 up about this just yet?

You ask the NMB for election cards at your work place?

How are you going to organize the many CFIs, who largely, are waiting for that "airline" to ring them up and tell them to strap on this jet.

CFIs, largely, could care less about protecting the profession from any further downward spiral. At least those I worked with about two years ago. None of them had really heard about the trials and tribulations all who came before us went through. The most they probably heard was from their Aviation Labor Law professor who perhaps was never in the aviation industry, or if they were - they were a management stooge who certainly wasn't going to give a fair assessment of trade unionism within our profession.

Anyway. I honestly think you're onto something James. Go get it though.

[Polar742]

Originally Posted by Seggy

How could the IBT fix this?

We all know the IBT isn't the top of the top, but ABX, World and Netjets all got great contracts by the IBT. Arguably, Horizon's contract is good too.

ALPA has some great contracts. However, they have some really, really crappy regional (and other) contracts.

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by Seggy

So what are you going to do sit around or try to make it better? How could the IBT fix this?

I really want to be part of the solution and not the problem. I would love to try and form a union at my CFI job however I know I will be fired for it and others I work with would just not deal w/ it.

I'm not saying the IBT right now could fix it as is. However as it looks to me IBT and ALPA are not as strong separate, as one single voice. I just can't imagine that enough airlines would go one way or another anytime soon to create that single voice.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by jhugz

Understood.

And again this is someone from the outside looking in, ALPA seems to have very good resources. Many of you have said this and it seems like really reliable second hand information.

However QoL, Work Rules, & Pay Blows.

It seems as if a single unionized work force would help the effort. It just seems that all airlines going one way or the other would be next to impossible unless ALPA was absorbed. Crazy as it may sound I'm just brainstorming whether it makes sense or not. It would also be nice to see IBT at the CFI random 91 level which I don't really see ALPA touching. I could be seriously wrong.

I think you don't fully understand how ALPA and IBT works. ALPA and IBT are not true Unions they are Associations more so ALPA then IBT. They both have very little to do with QOL, work rules, and pay. The individual MEC's have control of those things.
What the IBT and ALPA do offer is a voice for pilots and resources to pilots and MEC's.
Now based on this info who would you pick the IBT or ALPA?
P.S.- In-Houes is unreal for most pilot groups(cost).

[Screaming_Emu]

I think that how the Colgan contract ends up will show the potential difference that ALPA can make. One way or another.

You can talk all you want, but results speak much louder.

*I'm not against ALPA I just don't agree in blanket statements saying that you're much better off with ALPA representation than someone else. That is clearly not the case.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

I think that how the Colgan contract ends up will show the potential difference that ALPA can make. One way or another.

You can talk all you want, but results speak much louder.

*I'm not against ALPA I just don't agree in blanket statements saying that you're much better off with ALPA representation than someone else. That is clearly not the case.

Varies.

From group to group.

The group decides what is best, not a couple of psychos on the interweb.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

I think that how the Colgan contract ends up will show the potential difference that ALPA can make. One way or another.

You can talk all you want, but results speak much louder.

*I'm not against ALPA I just don't agree in blanket statements saying that you're much better off with ALPA representation than someone else. That is clearly not the case.

But you are better with ALPA resources then without them.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

But you are better with ALPA resources then without them.

Thank you!

[Polar742]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

But you are better with ALPA resources then without them.

Absolutely fact, as I read it for personal issues.

The verdict is still out with the 1224, as I haven't heard of any medical/legal things in work.

747, you were purely on your own.

This is why Polar742 got AOPA (with the ATP legal) when we went to IBT.

[Gonzo]

James maybe you should call ALPA and see if you can set up a tour of the HQ I think it will open your eyes.

http://www.himsprogram.com/ is a big one.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

James maybe you should call ALPA and see if you can set up a tour of the HQ I think it will open your eyes.

That.

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

But you are better with ALPA resources then without them.

That depends what a pilot group's definition of better is.

Yes, ALPA has a mountain legal resources, medical resourcdes, jumpseat coordinators, etc.

But to another group pay, time off, and scope might be important.

Quite frankly if I worked at Mesa, or Great Lakes maybe my priorities aren't so much with having somebody behind me for if I mess up. But rather making sure I get a livable wage.

Quite frankly if I'm being treated poorly at work, my priorities are going to be to fix that. Rather than have someone standing behind me if something goes wrong.

I guess to sum it up in non literal terms. If you can't buy groceries, what do you care about insurance? One thing has to come before the others. Pay and work rules are #1 priority to me, then all the other stuff. But everybody is different.

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

James maybe you should call ALPA and see if you can set up a tour of the HQ I think it will open your eyes.

I think I will, didn't realize they were in D.C. but I guess that would make sense.

-James

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

Pay and work rules are #1 priority to me, then all the other stuff. But everybody is different.

Here is the thing, if you get a LOI from the FAA for an altitude bust your priorities will change.

Instead of looking at ALPA from the industrial standpoint, you will look at it from the safety/engineering side of it. See what Polar wrote.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

That depends what a pilot group's definition of better is.

Yes, ALPA has a mountain legal resources, medical resourcdes, jumpseat coordinators, etc.

But to another group pay, time off, and scope might be important.

Quite frankly if I worked at Mesa, or Great Lakes maybe my priorities aren't so much with having somebody behind me for if I mess up. But rather making sure I get a livable wage.

Quite frankly if I'm being treated poorly at work, my priorities are going to be to fix that. Rather than have someone standing behind me if something goes wrong.

I guess to sum it up in non literal terms. If you can't buy groceries, what do you care about insurance? One thing has to come before the others. Pay and work rules are #1 priority to me, then all the other stuff. But everybody is different.

You should know better. ALPA national has very little to do with pay and QOL talk to your LEC and MEC rep's.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by jhugz

I think I will, didn't realize they were in D.C. but I guess that would make sense.

-James

If you don't have any luck getting set up, let one of us know and I'm sure we can get it taken care of. Heck, you might even find one of our very own up in DC.

And Joe. . .

Clearly pay is not a couple of our peers' #1 priorty

Even if you are off-duty, the uniform must be all or nothing. About a half dozen pilots have been stopped in the last few weeks with no tie on in the concourse, but with wings and epaulets proudly displayed. The response from each pilot has been that they were off-duty. Passengers don’t know your off-duty, they just see an ASA pilot sporting the hybrid collegiate flight instructor casual Friday look; not confidence building. When in view of the public, even off-duty or when commuting, wear the full uniform, or take your wings and epaulets off.

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

And Joe. . .

Clearly pay is not a couple of our peers' #1 priorty

It is for some of them...you know, the ones picking up open time even though there's 130 some people on the street.

indeed

[Airdale]

Somewhere at sometime, it would be great for every Airline union to come together under one umbrella, for one universal cause. But the very reason that multiple unions exist, is the very reason a single union, single seniority list will never be accomplished.

I like apples and you like oranges. There will never be agreement.

For every 10 people, 5 will be for ALPA, 5 will be against.

No matter how big the pecker or how hard you push, you will never pee uphill. It will always roll back over your feet.

[casey]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

That depends what a pilot group's definition of better is.

Yes, ALPA has a mountain legal resources, medical resourcdes, jumpseat coordinators, etc.

But to another group pay, time off, and scope might be important.

your dissatisfaction isnt with ALPA, its with the local reps you guys keep voting in, the MEC those members select and the members of the NC and other committees. Going to IBT wont change any of this, you'll still have the local leadership doing everything they do now, you just wont have national resources to help them and/or you.

If you want better QoL, pay, scope, etc, IBT isnt the answer. The answer is recalling your reps, voting in people that want the same things you do and voting NO when the crappy TA comes from the NC. If you have a crappy contract its because, in part, of the reps who were elected/volunteered into various positions and ultimately with the pilots who ratified the contract, NOT because of the national association you happen to fall under.

[staplegun]

Originally Posted by casey

your dissatisfaction isnt with ALPA, its with the local reps you guys keep voting in, the MEC those members select and the members of the NC and other committees. Going to IBT wont change any of this, you'll still have the local leadership doing everything they do now, you just wont have national resources to help them and/or you.

If you want better QoL, pay, scope, etc, IBT isnt the answer. The answer is recalling your reps, voting in people that want the same things you do and voting NO when the crappy TA comes from the NC. If you have a crappy contract its because, in part, of the reps who were elected/volunteered into various positions and ultimately with the pilots who ratified the contract, NOT because of the national association you happen to fall under.

Ding, ding, ding...

We have a winner!


Just my opinion, of course...


Kevin

[SpiraMirabilis]

If Mesa was IBT they'd have the same crappy contract (maybe even worse) except when/if I ever got violated, or get my medical denied I'd be on my own. The responsibility for that is on the people who negotiated the contract which probably would be the SAME people who would have negotiated a contract if there was IBT instead of ALPA.

ALPA national is like a big toolbox, sitting there eagerly waiting for people to reach in and pull out what they need. But it's not going to solve your problems for you... maybe a wrench is exactly what you need, but just because you have one doesn't mean that the wrench is going to grow legs, walk over to whatever you need wrenching and do it itself.

[Hootie]

In a fight, my money is on the pipe fitters.

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by casey

your dissatisfaction isnt with ALPA, its with the local reps you guys keep voting in, the MEC those members select and the members of the NC and other committees. Going to IBT wont change any of this, you'll still have the local leadership doing everything they do now, you just wont have national resources to help them and/or you.

If you want better QoL, pay, scope, etc, IBT isnt the answer. The answer is recalling your reps, voting in people that want the same things you do and voting NO when the crappy TA comes from the NC. If you have a crappy contract its because, in part, of the reps who were elected/volunteered into various positions and ultimately with the pilots who ratified the contract, NOT because of the national association you happen to fall under.

Actually I'm not THAT dissastisfied. I just don't agree with those jumping up and down screaming ALPA IS THE ONLY WAY! Because clearly its not.