Pinnacle has reached a TA!!!

[Rocketman99]

Colgan DH pay is 50% of block.

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by cencal83406

All I gotta say is they better knock it the f8 down! I wanna see a strike and get this company out of business.

This is the kind of crap that gives unions a bad name. Your goal shouldn't be to put the company out of business; your goal should be a new contract.

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

Rhetorical question:

Do you believe regional management has more/less to lose in this economy than the pilots?

Real question:

Do you think it's better to beat your chest and vote down a decent TA and spend another 1-2 years in negotiations to achieve a marginally better deal, or accept the decent TA now?

Originally Posted by kellwolf

As for striking, we'd need to get released from the NMB for that to happen. After talking to one of the negotiators, they seemed to make it clear it was HIGHLY unlikely for us or anyone else to get released. Yeah, Amerijet got released, but they aren't a 1300 pilot passenger airline, either. If the TA gets voted down, those that think the NMB is gonna release us may be in for a rather rude awakening. It will likely be another year or so of status quo rather than STFD. That being said, I don't wanna pass a turkey of a TA just because, either.

It's not unlikely for anyone to get released (it's actually pretty likely that one or two passenger carriers will get released in the next year or two), but it is highly unlikely that Pinnacle would get released in the near future after rejecting a decent TA. The economy isn't the issue, as someone else pointed out, the issue is reasonability. If the NMB believes that a group is being unreasonable, they aren't going to release you. The purpose of the RLA and the NMB is to get two sides to reach a deal. An unreasonable party is just as unlikely to reach a deal after self-help as they are before it, so they see no need to release you if you are being unreasonable in their eyes. I'll remind everyone of a direct quote from the NMB when XJT's negotiators were demanding $100,000 for 5-year Captains:

"Come back to us when you've stopped smoking crack."

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Now, I'm betting there's a lot of guys reading this pretty sure that I've sold out and I'm just pushing the party line. Not at all. I'm just trying to take a realistic approach that tends to seem like a sell out approach compared to all the adamant "no" voters out there.

Thank God someone is thinking over there.

[cencal83406]

I think it's quite obvious who we don't want negotiating for the Pinnacle pilots in the next round of negotiations. Sorry Steve but accepting substandard contract items because of a computer program is just wrong. Accepting 10 days off.... wrong.

I hope someone comes up with a sticker that says something to the affect of "don't blame me, I voted No! on contract 2005/2009"

Todd, it's disappointing to see a union official with a stance that basically tells me we can't achieve fair work rules. I'd love to grab a beer and find out the finer points, but I'm also shocked to hear the NMB tell a negotiating team "they're smoking crack" with fair rates.

You know what, I'd say maybe the union should ask for more than they expect pay wise to help "negotiate" the work rules. Or sacrifice top Captain pay to help the FOs out.... don't drop it, just negotiate COLA so that Joe can fly his glider around more often.

This TA, if what I'm "hearing" is true, seems to have been a 5 year wasted effort. I hope that if I can ever get on with a major, I join a club thats got an MEC with balls to tell the company to shove it with crap contracts.

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by cencal83406

Todd, it's disappointing to see a union official with a stance that basically tells me we can't achieve fair work rules.

I'm not telling you that you can't. You certainly can. What I'm saying is that you will have to wait if you want to see improvements beyond the TA. It's a simple question: are you willing to spend another 1-2 years negotiating to possibly get what you want? If the answer is yes, then by all means, vote NO! Democracy is a beautiful thing. I just don't want you to think that you'll magically get a better TA in a couple of months if you vote this one down. It just ain't gonna happen. In fact, you probably won't even be back at the bargaining table in a couple of months after voting down this TA. Prepare for the really long haul.

I'd love to grab a beer and find out the finer points, but I'm also shocked to hear the NMB tell a negotiating team "they're smoking crack" with fair rates.

Is $100k at year 5 a "fair" rate for an ERJ Captain? Depends on your definition of "fair." I think it's certainly deserved, but when no one else in the industry makes anything even approaching that, it's not a reasonable position to take. With that said, the unprofessionalism of the NMB's comment at the time was indicative of the Bush NMB. That sort of thing won't happen now, but they will respectfully tell you that they'll have to park you for a little while if you aren't behaving reasonably.

[higney85]

We have a P2P call tonight and will be talking about the TA. I will remain quiet about what I have read, but the details (good, bad, indifferent) will come out and each pilot will need to take the responsibility of passing their good/bad vote to their MEC rep. Some bases have bigger political hurdles than others... but lets not go down that road.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by cencal83406

I think it's quite obvious who we don't want negotiating for the Pinnacle pilots in the next round of negotiations. Sorry Steve but accepting substandard contract items because of a computer program is just wrong. Accepting 10 days off.... wrong.

I still say voting no on one issue.....wrong. If it was between not getting JAd and extended into my day off or 11 days off, I'd take the former. Why? B/c if I get 11 days off and JAd, the net result is the same: 10 days off. What did I gain other than maybe 125% pay and a comp day? It's actually more beneficial for the company to run things that way since they can cover things with JAs rather than more pilots on the seniority list. What about if they DID take you below min days off (in a RSV's case 10) and you got paid a good chunk of change on top of guarantee as compensation for that, too? Now, if we could get 11 days off AND no JMs and extensions, that would be better. Point is, you have to look at the big picture rather than "What? Only 10 days?!? F this I'm voting "no.""

[aevfo]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Hey, man. It made sense to me, and knowing our PBS system the way I do, it still makes sense. Take it or leave it. The pairing generator sucks, which is what allows PBS to screw us so badly. A more up to date pairing generator (as in one that will actually generate pairings in like under a week without causing the server to smoke) would supposedly "cost to much." As an example, before the PBS guys started tweaking the pairings, it was DHing guys to an outstation to pick up a flight back into the hub. The way they had to fix it was to generate 4 hours sits in MSP or DTW. Otherwise, the damn thing had you DHing to FNT, sitting there for 2 hours and coming back to DTW. What we NEED is better control of pairings and PBS.

As for the explanation, it was one of the negotiators that gave it to me, for what it's worth. Just for comparison, which other regionals other than XJT have 100% DH pay?

If you believe crap like that then I have some killer beach property in nebraska if you want to buy it.

[higney85]

Originally Posted by aevfo

If you believe crap like that then I have some killer beach property in nebraska if you want to buy it.

I think kell is educated enough to see the devil in all the details and make a good decision, although his likes/dislikes will be different than the other 1300 pilots- you can't please everybody. My mind is made up and in talking with Kell I think he and I will still be able to be friends.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by higney85

I think kell is educated enough to see the devil in all the details and make a good decision, although his likes/dislikes will be different than the other 1300 pilots- you can't please everybody. My mind is made up and in talking with Kell I think he and I will still be able to be friends.

Yep. FYI, drove by the Saucer last night. Thought about you.

[higney85]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Yep. FYI, drove by the Saucer last night. Thought about you.

I feel the love...

[dingo222]

if amended, i hear the duration of this new contract is 10 yrs........

[surreal1221]

10 years!?

Oh gawd.

Seriously? Now all of the regional management will be wanting a ten year amendable date.

Industry standard can go up and down.

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by dingo222

if amended, i hear the duration of this new contract is 10 yrs........

I don't believe that is the case.

[Foxcow]

Ouch. 10 years is a long time.

[surreal1221]

If it is 10years, I sure as hell hope you guys got some nice DOS+(yr) increases.

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by Foxcow

Ouch. 10 years is a long time.

It's actually more like half of that time. Still more than I would have hoped, but oh well.

[Gonzo]

16 years worked out ok for Eagle.

[dingo222]

Originally Posted by ATN_Pilot

It's actually more like half of that time. Still more than I would have hoped, but oh well.

Just what I heard at a conference week. The TA isn't public yet, so it's prob bull.

[higney85]

Originally Posted by dingo222

Just what I heard at a conference week. The TA isn't public yet, so it's prob bull.

It's a 5-year deal folks.

[Rocketman99]

Originally Posted by higney85

It's a 5-year deal folks.

Wait so does that mean it's immediately amenable then since it took so long from the old amenable date...?

[FlyChicaga]

That duration is not terrible. I've been working under the same contract for 5 years (today is my anniversary date), and I've seen many changes. Some good, some bad. A contract is truly a living document, IF you have good pull for LOA's.

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by Rocketman99

Wait so does that mean it's immediately amenable then since it took so long from the old amenable date...?

No, it doesn't work that way. It's effective from the date of signing, so it will be 5 years from the date it's signed by Captain Prater, assuming it's ratified by the MEC and the pilot group.

[kellwolf]

It's a 5 year deal. The company wanted the extra couple of years in exchange for the scope clause. IMO, it was worth that trade off. There's an "early opening" clause so next time, we'll be in negotitions for 6 or 7 years, but only 5 will be past the ammendable date.....

[ATN_Pilot]

You're really sounding optimistic about the next bargaining cycle, Kell.

[higney85]

Originally Posted by ATN_Pilot

You're really sounding optimistic about the next bargaining cycle, Kell.

Management doesn't call themselves "simply the best" when talking about their golf game. The slogan applies just to their game of making all their "performance delays" at the negotiating table- Somehow that's the only place all pinnacle labor groups can't have "industry leading" numbers.