"Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Career

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

You forgot the C-Series my friend!

C-Series and CRJ1000 will never touch a regional!

[jynxyjoe]

Isn't there an argument that with the much higher number of passengers flying that perhaps 70 seater's aren't mainline scope? *ducks head from shooting in my direction*

All respect to OTP and P ol' 128 and the many other voices here much smarter than I am. The math in my head says that if labor costs more to fly around small aircraft then less people will fly so theres no need to actually have the aircraft. Is my reasoning way off from a historical perspective or am I perhaps missing some simple math?

Just to make clear. I'd much rather have mainline grab up everything, but the way I watch UAL mainline handle its business (the management side, not the pilot side) I'm not all that convinced mainline flying for all is the magic bullet. Regulation doesn't seem like a magic bullet either, especially after watching the FAA handle todays latest infrastructure snafu.

If I'm way off I'm way off, I don't need the flame. Just trying to figure out this mess of an industry.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by 777forever

Head is way above sand. What routes are the might 74 seat Q going to take from mainline CAL that hasn't already been taken by the 50 seaters? Are they going to start flying the Q from EWR to DFW? EWR to TPA? EWR to MIA? EWR to Punta Cana?

The 50 seaters are completely uneconomical. Say hello to their replacement.

Sigh. You just answered your own question. Mainline's already lost the flying. We're trying to get the flying BACK at mainline so guys like you and me don't get stuck at a regional. The Q isn't gonna help that. Think why the mainline guys lost the flying to regionals. Frequency. Same number of seats, but with twice as many flights now. So, they can offer more departure times to snag more passengers. They weren't running with a full 737-200 at 8 AM, so they toss an RJ on at 8 AM and 10 am, and they filled 'em both up. Net result, more money.

I'd like to see mainline take back flying like MEM-DFW, MEM-ATL, etc, etc. Those are routes that that uneconomical 50 seater coulda been pulled for an MD-80 or a 737. Instead, the Q comes along, and the flying is back stuck at the regional level. Ir's not existing routes I'm worried about, it's bettering the profession. The Q makes it harder on that level. On another note, I'm not entirely trustworthy of the management at my airline not to use Colgan's Qs to whipsaw us on the jets. After all, the contracts with Delta and NWA are with Pinnacle HOLDINGS.

[VF-213]

Originally Posted by 777forever

C-Series and CRJ1000 will never touch a regional!

"Never" is a word I wouldn't want to apply to this business model.

With a bit of historical perspective you'll see the folly in that viewpoint.

[cfii2007]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Sigh. You just answered your own question. Mainline's already lost the flying. We're trying to get the flying BACK at mainline so guys like you and me don't get stuck at a regional. The Q isn't gonna help that. Think why the mainline guys lost the flying to regionals. Frequency. Same number of seats, but with twice as many flights now. So, they can offer more departure times to snag more passengers. They weren't running with a full 737-200 at 8 AM, so they toss an RJ on at 8 AM and 10 am, and they filled 'em both up. Net result, more money.

I'd like to see mainline take back flying like MEM-DFW, MEM-ATL, etc, etc. Those are routes that that uneconomical 50 seater coulda been pulled for an MD-80 or a 737. Instead, the Q comes along, and the flying is back stuck at the regional level. Ir's not existing routes I'm worried about, it's bettering the profession. The Q makes it harder on that level. On another note, I'm not entirely trustworthy of the management at my airline not to use Colgan's Qs to whipsaw us on the jets. After all, the contracts with Delta and NWA are with Pinnacle HOLDINGS.

And more congestion and crowded skies. I hate flying in the CRJ, they are WAY too small, with no bin space.

[ATN_Pilot]

I agree with 777forever. The Q is no threat to mainline flying. Kell is right that it certainly isn't helping in bringing flying back to the mainline carriers, but no more flying will be lost from mainline due to the Q. The Q is a niche airframe and can't be used as a DC-9 or 737 replacement.

With that being said, I've already voted NO on allowing outsourcing of large turboprop flying, and I'll continue to do so if it comes for a vote again. If it has a big cursive "A" on the tail, then it needs to be flown by pilots on our own seniority list.

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Sigh. You just answered your own question. Mainline's already lost the flying. We're trying to get the flying BACK at mainline so guys like you and me don't get stuck at a regional. The Q isn't gonna help that. Think why the mainline guys lost the flying to regionals. Frequency. Same number of seats, but with twice as many flights now. So, they can offer more departure times to snag more passengers. They weren't running with a full 737-200 at 8 AM, so they toss an RJ on at 8 AM and 10 am, and they filled 'em both up. Net result, more money.

I'd like to see mainline take back flying like MEM-DFW, MEM-ATL, etc, etc. Those are routes that that uneconomical 50 seater coulda been pulled for an MD-80 or a 737. Instead, the Q comes along, and the flying is back stuck at the regional level. Ir's not existing routes I'm worried about, it's bettering the profession. The Q makes it harder on that level. On another note, I'm not entirely trustworthy of the management at my airline not to use Colgan's Qs to whipsaw us on the jets. After all, the contracts with Delta and NWA are with Pinnacle HOLDINGS.

I see your point. I'm with you on just making the whole situation simple and making all 50 seat and up flying mainline. That would end the rat race right there.

I was just saying that the Q is not going to do anymore damage than has already been done. In fact, I think the Q might provide hope to our profession in that if it results in the airlines returning to profitability, we can actually get a raise!

Look at all the well paid, pilots out there. Netjets, UPS, Fedex, Overseas companies. The common factor is that their companies are healthy and doing well. Its very difficult to get a raise or better working environment went your companies consistently or in and out of the red every quarter.

If mainline recaptured all flying right now it could possibly bankrupt some of the Legacies. I say let the best companies pull out of this mess and figure out how to make money at this 121 passenger game. Then we can start neogiating scope with some leverage.

[jynxyjoe]

Originally Posted by 777forever

I say let the best companies pull out of this mess and figure out how to make money at this 121 passenger game. Then we can start neogiating scope with some leverage.

I think that happened already 777. Then some airline came in and said, "hey I'm the new guy with low labor costs, hire me!"

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by jynxyjoe

I think that happened already 777. Then some airline came in and said, "hey I'm the new guy with low labor costs, hire me!"

Hey, I never said it would be easy! Anyways,we'd still have a better shot in that situation with the airlines making healthy profits then in today's environment

[surreal1221]

Could you imagine a situation where the airlines are pulling down record profits, a la oil companies right now?

The public would demand action by the gubment to bring prices down.

It'd be ####ing ridiculous.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by 777forever

Look at all the well paid, pilots out there. Netjets, UPS, Fedex, Overseas companies. The common factor is that their companies are healthy and doing well. Its very difficult to get a raise or better working environment went your companies consistently or in and out of the red every quarter.

NetJets, I'll give you. But you must be talking to different FedEx people than me, and I live in FedEx-land. They aren't doing as well as they were a couple of years ago, mostly thanks to fuel prices. They probably won't be hiring pilots for at least 5 years unless something drastic changes. I've talked to a couple of guys over there that are actually pondering going back to the military reserves full time rather than fly at FedEx. These are the junior guys, mind you.

As for getting pay raises b/c of the Q returning the airlines to profitability......I'm not gonna hold my breath. When Colgan gets decent pay rates on the Q, then I'll be optimistic about it. Right now, the only Q400 operator with good pay rates on the Q is furloughing in November. Colgan's flying them for less than 50 seat rates and STILL bleeding cash thanks to shaky start ups. We'll see how it goes once the bugs get worked out and they get a union in place over there.

[Cruise]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

NetJets, I'll give you. But you must be talking to different FedEx people than me, and I live in FedEx-land. They aren't doing as well as they were a couple of years ago, mostly thanks to fuel prices. They probably won't be hiring pilots for at least 5 years unless something drastic changes. I've talked to a couple of guys over there that are actually pondering going back to the military reserves full time rather than fly at FedEx. These are the junior guys, mind you.

As for getting pay raises b/c of the Q returning the airlines to profitability......I'm not gonna hold my breath. When Colgan gets decent pay rates on the Q, then I'll be optimistic about it. Right now, the only Q400 operator with good pay rates on the Q is furloughing in November. Colgan's flying them for less than 50 seat rates and STILL bleeding cash thanks to shaky start ups. We'll see how it goes once the bugs get worked out and they get a union in place over there.

Bring it baby, bring it! I'd say getting the Q situation worked out would be one of the top priorities once we've got a union on property. As it stands now, the Q rates are insulting! Industry average, my butt! But, as it's been said before, not enough people felt it was important to have a say in their future last year. I'm quite certain, that's going to change in the not-too-distant-future.

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

NetJets, I'll give you. But you must be talking to different FedEx people than me, and I live in FedEx-land. They aren't doing as well as they were a couple of years ago, mostly thanks to fuel prices. They probably won't be hiring pilots for at least 5 years unless something drastic changes. I've talked to a couple of guys over there that are actually pondering going back to the military reserves full time rather than fly at FedEx. These are the junior guys, mind you.

Yeah I believe the junior guys there are being screwed due to age 65 and the over 60 FEs going back to CA/FO.

As far as the company financially, oil is hampering Fedex's profits a bit but not nearly on the scale it is weighing on the legacies.

As for getting pay raises b/c of the Q returning the airlines to profitability......I'm not gonna hold my breath. When Colgan gets decent pay rates on the Q, then I'll be optimistic about it. Right now, the only Q400 operator with good pay rates on the Q is furloughing in November. Colgan's flying them for less than 50 seat rates and STILL bleeding cash thanks to shaky start ups. We'll see how it goes once the bugs get worked out and they get a union in place over there.

PNCL and Colgan are the only ones in the industry(regional) right now that I think will be able to get a wage increase, due to many reasons such as the above Oh and maybe Mesa

[surreal1221]

Mesa getting a raise?

I'd welcome it. . .if the long term prospects of the company actually being in existence over the short term were more promising.

Get what you can now before the door closes.

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Mesa getting a raise?

I'd welcome it. . .if the long term prospects of the company actually being in existence over the short term were more promising.

Get what you can now before the door closes.

Desperate time calls for desperate measures for Ornstein. Maybe a new contract will show Mesa has some short of stability in the company...

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

I agree with 777forever. The Q is no threat to mainline flying.

The Q is a niche airframe and can't be used as a DC-9 or 737 replacement.

Tell that to the 737 CO pilots who have had their EWR routes replaced by CJC and their huge turboprop.

[surreal1221]

From what - the same routes such as EWR - PIT from the early 90's?

Granted, I'm not fan of any airplane that exceeds a 76 seat scope simply because it's a turbo prop - but that's the pill the COA pilot group choose, was it not?

[AMH]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Tell that to the 737 CO pilots who have had their EWR routes replaced by CJC and their huge turboprop.

That's true. But, who likes to fly into EWR anyway?

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Tell that to the 737 CO pilots who have had their EWR routes replaced by CJC and their huge turboprop.

Which 737 routes in EWR were replaced by Qs?

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Which 737 routes in EWR were replaced by Qs?

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Tell that to the 737 CO pilots who have had their EWR routes replaced by CJC and their huge turboprop.

Yes, the same route that was replaced by a E145 years ago is now replaced by a Q.

Unless you're telling me that CAL main strategy with the Q is to start replacing 737 routes while letting the 145 continue to run rampant and waste fuel.

[OldTownPilot]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Which 737 routes in EWR were replaced by Qs?

That was answered about 20 posts up.

[surreal1221]

big friggin deal guys. . .####.

[staplegun]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Could you imagine a situation where the airlines are pulling down record profits, a la oil companies right now?

The public would demand action by the gubment to bring prices down.

It'd be ####ing ridiculous.

You mean like this?

Delta Air Lines Reports December Quarter Results And Calendar Year Highlights; Quarterly Earnings Exceed First Call Consensus Estimate

DECEMBER 1999 QUARTER CONSOLIDATED RESULTS (excluding gains from the sale of investments and non-recurring charges)

CALENDAR 1999 CONSOLIDATED FINANCIAL RESULTS

(excluding gains from the sale of investments and non-recurring charges)

Record Diluted Earnings Per Share of $6.94

Record Operating Revenue of $15.1 billion

Record Operating Income of $1.8 billion

Net Income of $1.0 billion

????


Kevin

[surreal1221]

My post was primarily meant in jest. . .but I'm sure the Joe Twelepacks in the world, when they are getting nickle and dimed and are paying an appropriate fare for services rendered would want to revolt against the industry for "price gouging."

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

That was answered about 20 posts up.

I'm pretty sure that the routes you mentioned weren't being flown by 737s before they were replaced by Qs. They were flown by Saabs or RJs, correct?