"Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Career

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by b3181981

I served in the airforce from 04sep01 to 03sep2005 as an electrical and environmental systems mechanic and after that with the dod for a year. the dumbest thing I've ever done was quit that job and I kick myself everyday for doing so. I got out because their was no benefit for to stay in. I received top notch training, and made some excellent friends but I don't believe in that JFK speech " ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". if i had stayed in i would have ended up in Iraq serving in someone else's war. It is also kind of hard to re-up when your handed a job with three times the pay and a third less work load.

Thanks - I'll be happy to discuss this with you.

First you have to realize how offensive this statement is:

Originally Posted by b3181981

let me rephrase that,
the military is for the poor, or the stupid, or the ignorant, or anybody trying to get a leg up.

Minus the get a leg up part, this is an inaccurate portrayal of the military. Saying everyone fits into one of those categories is saying that most military service people come from poor backgrounds, are stupid, or are ignorant. Is this really what you saw in the AF?

Originally Posted by b3181981

when you enlisted in the army what did you sign up for?

Do you mean why did I sign up, or for what branch did I sign up? (Side note: work on those writing skills - very important in today's competitive world.)

The reason I signed up is because I wanted to take charge of my own life and get out from under my parent's rules and checkbook.

The branch I signed up for was the Infantry.

after you initial enlistment what did you do?

I reenlisted.

I see you went from enlisted to officer so are you not trying to better yourself? also you signed up to fly helicopters, why? Because it was probably thrilling, a challenge, you get paid to do something you enjoy,

I certainly was trying to better myself.

and on the outside leads to a very well paid career.

No, no it doesn't. Not the helicopter part, anyway. I don't fly anymore.

why would you only serve for 15 years when just one more enlistment you could retire? I read in some of your blogs you like being able to see your wife every night.

Officers do not reenlist, they serve indefinitely until they resign. I served 15 calendar years but am credited with 12 years of service due to ROTC after my enlisted time. After all that time I felt it was my time to move on, and yes, I like to see my wife every night.

Another thing and I'm not trying to bash you here but If their wasn't a war going on would you have finished your time to receive retirement?

That's a moot point. I served a tour in Afghanistan and Iraq already. The large amount of time away from home certainly was factored in my decision to leave.


So, having answered your questions I have to wonder what they had to do with your original point?

[surreal1221]

Oh great - he said he was in the Air Force.



Not all of us hold such opinions guys, please don't crucify me along side this guy.

[b3181981]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Thanks - I'll be happy to discuss this with you.

First you have to realize how offensive this statement is:



Minus the get a leg up part, this is an inaccurate portrayal of the military. Saying everyone fits into one of those categories is saying that most military service people come from poor backgrounds, are stupid, or are ignorant. Is this really what you saw in the AF?

A majority of the people I met in the AF did fit one of the categories. they joined because their options in the civilian world didn't compare to the ones in the military. then when they are single and join they get married, have kids and now don't have the means of leaving and a career starts to look more appealing. I can only think of two people in my shop of 24 who were single and re-enlisted. The military prevents you from leaving because it is not economical, health care and housing is too much for a first time enlisted to move on to the civilian world.

Do you mean why did I sign up, or for what branch did I sign up? (Side note: work on those writing skills - very important in today's competitive world.)
I meant what did you sign up for, I knew what branch by specifying the army.

The reason I signed up is because I wanted to take charge of my own life and get out from under my parent's rules and checkbook.

The branch I signed up for was the Infantry.



I reenlisted.



I certainly was trying to better myself.



No, no it doesn't. Not the helicopter part, anyway. I don't fly anymore.



Officers do not reenlist, they serve indefinitely until they resign. I served 15 calendar years but am credited with 12 years of service due to ROTC after my enlisted time. After all that time I felt it was my time to move on, and yes, I like to see my wife every night.

Yes officers serve indefinitely until they resign after their initial enlistment but they do reenlist and sign a contract for 4 or 6 or 8 years because they have bonuses and such tied to those contracts. If they quit before the contract is up they have to pay some of those bonuses back.


That's a moot point. I served a tour in Afghanistan and Iraq already. The large amount of time away from home certainly was factored in my decision to leave.

I'm not calling you a coward by saying what I said. What I'm is if their wasn't a war going on would you have stayed in because the only place that I can think of being sent to where you can't take you wife is Korea. Every where else you can take your family with you so I say again would you stay in if their wasn't a war going on and you weren't stationed in Korea?

So, having answered your questions I have to wonder what they had to do with your original point?

I don't know what the point was I really don't.

[Rocketman99]

Originally Posted by b3181981

Yes officers serve indefinitely until they resign after their initial enlistment but they do reenlist and sign a contract for 4 or 6 or 8 years because they have bonuses and such tied to those contracts. If they quit before the contract is up they have to pay some of those bonuses back.

I just wanted to chime in on this particular point. As an officer you serve indefinitely until your committment is up, or you get passed over for promotion a number of times. The committments are incurred for things like original commission, source of commission, pilot training, schooling, etc. Once you have served out the required amount of years for that you can put in your walking papers and head out the door.

There are also some options for "contracts" as you put it for staying in. They are not a requirment and usually entail a heft monetary bonus for taking it. They are not required to continue serving and not all people who choose to serve an additional few years take the bonuses. Yes, if you try to leave before then you incur penalties or are just plain not allowed to leave.

[Firebird2XC]

I'm not responding to this... uneducated yet opinionated individual... any more.

Anyhow... MOVING ALONG.

In keeping with the trend of fighting for better pay and work at the Regional airlines in this country, we can all realize a few things.

We're the new major airlines. If it costs more, it's going to be phased out in time. Unfortunately for pilots at all levels, the Legacy airlines are soon to become the stuff of memories.

The current "Regional" airlines of today are the future for all of us.... tell your fellow aviators and all the aspiring hopefuls out there. Get the truth out.

Coincidentally, American Eagle pilots are picketing AMR headquarter on September 12th.

It would seem that management has absolutely no intent of improving pilot compensation or rates of pay in the latest contract amendment.

Eagle pilots will be at the tip of the spear on this one. Granted the timing is coincidental, but as far as I know no other pilot groups in the industry are standing up to demand a pay increase at present.

If you'd like to lend your support, I'm sure it would be welcome.

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

We're the new major airlines. If it costs more, it's going to be phased out in time. Unfortunately for pilots at all levels, the Legacy airlines are soon to become the stuff of memories.

The current "Regional" airlines of today are the future for all of us.... tell your fellow aviators and all the aspiring hopefuls out there. Get the truth out.

I respectfully disagree. Times are tough out there right now, but things will get better. No need for the "legacy airlines are going to disappear" doom and gloom.

My prediction, the industry will be at a standstill for 5 years then we'll be right back where we were a few months ago, everybody hiring like gangbusters.

If age 65 never went thru we'd all be singing quite a different tune right now.

Age 65 stopped the movement, fuel prices started the furloughs.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by 777forever

My prediction, the industry will be at a standstill for 5 years then we'll be right back where we were a few months ago, everybody hiring like gangbusters.

If age 65 never went thru we'd all be singing quite a different tune right now.

You R-E-A-L-L-Y need to take those blinders off. The US major airlines will NEVER regain the status they once had. Nor will they ever see the pay level that they once enjoyed and still deserve. 5 years from now you are more much more likely to see foreign carriers flying routes in the US, and regionals will be the only US carriers.

Congrats to all the Pilot Mills, they got their wish. Everyone gets to fly a shiny jet at 500 hours....But very few newhires will ever see mid level 6 figures in a legacy widebody.

Irreparable damage has been done to the legacies in the last 15 years and don't start with the age 65 garbage. Don't forget it added 5 years to your career too. Most of those guys didn't even get established in this career until they were in their 30s. You guys starting in your 20s will be (maybe) spending 10 more years in the seat than they did. Unfortunately, your lifetime earnings will likely be less.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by 777forever

I respectfully disagree. Times are tough out there right now, but things will get better. No need for the "legacy airlines are going to disappear" doom and gloom.

My prediction, the industry will be at a standstill for 5 years then we'll be right back where we were a few months ago, everybody hiring like gangbusters.

If age 65 never went thru we'd all be singing quite a different tune right now.

Age 65 stopped the movement, fuel prices started the furloughs.

you're not getting it.

there is ZERO reason for legacy carriers to pay what they do when regional pilots can get the same job done with the same safety record for less money. if you think there's a bit of difference between what I do on a daily basis and what a cal 737 FO does on a daily basis are any different, then <you're mistaken> (edited)

the mainline carriers will continue to errode scope and will throw a few bones to their pilot groups to do so, but within 10 years you'll see international flying at mainline, and all 120 seat and below flying at regionals for pennies on the dollar.

we're already doing it, have proved it works and now that the pandoras box is open, we're all hosed. capitalism will force our prices down until people start dying, which we won't let happen because we die too, and this career will be gone.

the paradigm you're working within is flawed, and your career will probaly end at acey. the sooner you realize this the better.

you will not move on

you will not make big money

you will fly big airplanes

this is, to me, the reality of looking forward save for a very, very, very fortunate few, and I hate to say it, but you're not good enough to make it, and i'm probably not either. folks here who are awesome guys and have 3000 hours of tpic, a clean record and a college degree can't buy a job at mainline. how are you better than them?

[SteveC]

[side note]

Ian, thanks for giving an excellent example of the right way to handle a hot-button type topic. I appreciate how you almost always post in a professional manner.

[/s.n.]

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

You R-E-A-L-L-Y need to take those blinders off. The US major airlines will NEVER regain the status they once had. Nor will they ever see the pay level that they once enjoyed and still deserve. 5 years from now you are more much more likely to see foreign carriers flying routes in the US, and regionals will be the only US carriers.

Congrats to all the Pilot Mills, they got their wish. Everyone gets to fly a shiny jet at 500 hours....But very few newhires will ever see mid level 6 figures in a legacy widebody.

Irreparable damage has been done to the legacies in the last 15 years and don't start with the age 65 garbage. Don't forget it added 5 years to your career too. Most of those guys didn't even get established in this career until they were in their 30s. You guys starting in your 20s will be (maybe) spending 10 more years in the seat than they did. Unfortunately, your lifetime earnings will likely be less.

Never is a very strong word to use. Only time will tell. When I'm 65 I'll let you know how it went

[Seggy]

I love Ian and Kristen.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by b3181981

I see you went from enlisted to officer so are you not trying to better yourself?

This is kinda silly to use this as part of how you're basically "talking down" about enlisted guys. I know I try to better myself every damn day. Is that a bad thing? Maybe I shoulda just joined the military......


I have to agree with Firebird on the regionals as the "new majors." Why was Delta hiring? Expanding international operations. Where was the domestic stuff going? Regionals. Look no further than Northwest airlines as well. What were once DC-9 and A319 routes are now flown by E175s, CRJ-900s and even -200s in some cases. United is shrinking mainline but EXPANDING regionals. I don't think the legacies will disappear, but they sure ain't gonna be the state they were in their history. Don't be fooled by the hiring "boom" we experienced for a little more than a year. I think that was a fluke, honestly, compounded by retirements/buy outs offered in money saving attempts. Age 65 did it's job as a stop-gap, though. FedEx never even thought about hiring again, and from what some of my friends over there tell me, it's gonna be a lot longer than 5 years before they do.....

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

you're not getting it.

there is ZERO reason for legacy carriers to pay what they do when regional pilots can get the same job done with the same safety record for less money. if you think there's a bit of difference between what I do on a daily basis and what a cal 737 FO does on a daily basis are any different, then <you're mistaken> (edited)

the mainline carriers will continue to errode scope and will throw a few bones to their pilot groups to do so, but within 10 years you'll see international flying at mainline, and all 120 seat and below flying at regionals for pennies on the dollar.

we're already doing it, have proved it works and now that the pandoras box is open, we're all hosed. capitalism will force our prices down until people start dying, which we won't let happen because we die too, and this career will be gone.

Wow....

the paradigm you're working within is flawed, and your career will probaly end at acey. the sooner you realize this the better.

you will not move on

you will not make big money

you will fly big airplanes

Right...

this is, to me, the reality of looking forward save for a very, very, very fortunate few

No, the reality of it is you are being highly pessimistic...you guys put into your head that the legacy airlines is some big impossibility...

I hate to say it, but you're not good enough to make it, and i'm probably not either.

Right....

folks here who are awesome guys and have 3000 hours of tpic, a clean record and a college degree can't buy a job at mainline. how are you better than them?

Who you know will get you the job, what you know will keep you there...its called networking

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by b3181981

I don't know what the point was I really don't.

Based off this statement, let's give this guy a break.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Seggy

I love Ian and Kristen.

We love Seggy. We would adopt him, but only if there were enough hot chicks here for him.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by 777forever

I respectfully disagree. Times are tough out there right now, but things will get better. No need for the "legacy airlines are going to disappear" doom and gloom.

My prediction, the industry will be at a standstill for 5 years then we'll be right back where we were a few months ago, everybody hiring like gangbusters.

If age 65 never went thru we'd all be singing quite a different tune right now.

Age 65 stopped the movement, fuel prices started the furloughs.

:gasp:

Unreal. I was going to respond but realized I've already been down this road with Marky too many times. I hope you get to the left seat of that 777 you have posted on your wall. I really do.

[Firebird2XC]

Regardless of your viewpoint down the road, one thing seems clear to me-

Whether they continue to exist in present form or in a much diminished capacity, the time it will take many of us to reach the higher levels of pilot pay scales is much greater than previously thought.

As such, we all need to be hammering the walls about better work rules, better compensation, and better assurance of career expectations.

It is NOT acceptable to pour water back and forth from one glass to another when the 'water' in question is made of OUR JOBS.

Airline management has shown a continually callous and detached viewpoint towards the rank and file employees that they rely on.

All to often we hear them say, "We have to think of the shareholders and investors."

What they need to realize is that every single day we put everything we have into our respective companies. We invest in success through our collective sweat and toil. The return on our investment is how we sustain ourselves to continue that process.

If we, as airline employees, are not receiving returns on OUR investments, the very nature of the business relationship is unfairly skewed and tragically flawed.

Accept nothing short of a REAL WAGE FOR REAL WORK.


(P.S.- Ignore the troll. He's probably some airline management lurker that's trying to distract us from the fact that we've gone public with their dirty little secret.)

[b3181981]

their are two things you bring to every table. those are your knowledge, skill sets, and experience basically you and your ability to walk away. Management knows this and FO pilots have shown what they are worth by staying in a position that pays them surf wages. Management also knows that any 300/50me hour pilot can fill the role of a warm body in the right seat to comply with a FAA reg.

they have shown this by hiring such people in the past and the people they hire are happy to be there even if the wages are horrible because most people coming out of flight school have student loans that have to be paid. they know just around the corner if they are not let go that in the next year their pay will go up by 25 percent and after that up and up till they leave for another airline with better future pay even if they have to start at the bottom of that ladder.

FO's have no real bargaining power. if you were to take all of the FO's on strike the airlines could just fire them all with only a limited amount of interruption in operations. they would just fill those slots with 300/50me pilots.

the only real people who have any power at an airline are the CA and the ground crew. If you don't have ground crews to fix and support aircraft they don't fly and with out the captains they don't fly either. Now I know you need FO's and other cabin staff but these people are easy to replace for the most part as they don't require a lot of training or time to complete that training.

As far as real wage for real work let me tell you a story. I went into the fbo where I do my flight training looking for some mechanics work between working my other contracts they offered me 8 dollars an hour. now I'm not complaining about the offer, it was only side work mind you but I know what they are charging people and what they are paying people. they were charging 75 an hour to the customers, paying a helper 8 dollars an hour, paying the A&P 15 an hour, an A&P with IA 20 an hour, and the chief of maintenance 25 an hour.

when I started flight training my instructor was being paid 15 an hour when the school was charging 40. the school only paid starting instructors 10 an hour. the point people will always be wage slaves when they can't afford to leave and their is no where else to go that pays well.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by b3181981

their are two things you bring to every table. those are your knowledge, skill sets, and experience basically you and your ability to walk away. Management knows this and FO pilots have shown what they are worth by staying in a position that pays them surf wages. Management also knows that any 300/50me hour pilot can fill the role of a warm body in the right seat to comply with a FAA reg.

they have shown this by hiring such people in the past and the people they hire are happy to be there even if the wages are horrible because most people coming out of flight school have student loans that have to be paid. they know just around the corner if they are not let go that in the next year their pay will go up by 25 percent and after that up and up till they leave for another airline with better future pay even if they have to start at the bottom of that ladder.

FO's have no real bargaining power. if you were to take all of the FO's on strike the airlines could just fire them all with only a limited amount of interruption in operations. they would just fill those slots with 300/50me pilots.

the only real people who have any power at an airline are the CA and the ground crew. If you don't have ground crews to fix and support aircraft they don't fly and with out the captains they don't fly either. Now I know you need FO's and other cabin staff but these people are easy to replace for the most part as they don't require a lot of training or time to complete that training.

As far as real wage for real work let me tell you a story. I went into the fbo where I do my flight training looking for some mechanics work between working my other contracts they offered me 8 dollars an hour. now I'm not complaining about the offer, it was only side work mind you but I know what they are charging people and what they are paying people. they were charging 75 an hour to the customers, paying a helper 8 dollars an hour, paying the A&P 15 an hour, an A&P with IA 20 an hour, and the chief of maintenance 25 an hour.

when I started flight training my instructor was being paid 15 an hour when the school was charging 40. the school only paid starting instructors 10 an hour. the point people will always be wage slaves when they can't afford to leave and their is no where else to go that pays well.

And people go crazy because I provide my opinion on my profession. . .

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by 777forever

I respectfully disagree. Times are tough out there right now, but things will get better. No need for the "legacy airlines are going to disappear" doom and gloom.

My prediction, the industry will be at a standstill for 5 years then we'll be right back where we were a few months ago, everybody hiring like gangbusters.

If age 65 never went thru we'd all be singing quite a different tune right now.

Age 65 stopped the movement, fuel prices started the furloughs.

Agreed on all counts. I understand jtrain's pessimism, as he's suffering through a furlough, but I don't believe he is providing people with an unbiased and unemotional viewpoint. His views in this thread, IMHO, are colored by his resentment over what has happened to his job at XJT. Things aren't as bad as they seem. And 120-seat airplanes at regionals? I think not.

[kellwolf]

I'm bored and in a weird mood, so I guess I'll feed the troll...

Originally Posted by b3181981

their are two things you bring to every table. those are your 1knowledge, 2skill sets, and 3???experience basically you and your ability to walk away. Management knows this and FO pilots have shown what they are worth by staying in a position that pays them surf wages. Management also knows that any 300/50me hour pilot can fill the role of a warm body in the right seat to comply with a FAA reg.

It's "There" in that syntax, you listed 3 things, not two, and it's spelled "serf." We're talking plebeians working for poor wages from their lords, not blonde haired people on waxed down fiberglass, right?

they have shown this by hiring such people in the past and the people they hire are happy to be there even if the wages are horrible because most people coming out of flight school have student loans that have to be paid. they know just around the corner if they are not let go that in the next year their pay will go up by 25 percent and after that up and up till they leave for another airline with better future pay even if they have to start at the bottom of that ladder.

Spoken like someone that has never been there and is looking from the outside in. I took a job as an FO, but I wasn't happy with the low pay. I took it b/c I have a family, needed the medical insurance provided and it would give me more days at home with my family.

FO's have no real bargaining power. if you were to take all of the FO's on strike the airlines could just fire them all with only a limited amount of interruption in operations. they would just fill those slots with 300/50me pilots.

"Limited amount of interruption in operations?" Um, you DO know how long it takes to train a new FO right? I was hired in March of 06, and I wasn't fully trained and on the line until late May of 06. I'd say Nearly 3 months of having no FOs to run flights would kill an airline. There's no getting around the time frame, either. The programs are approved by the FAA, and any new program would need a new approval from the FAA. Guess which one would take less time?

the only real people who have any power at an airline are the CA and the ground crew. If you don't have ground crews to fix and support aircraft they don't fly and with out the captains they don't fly either. Now I know you need FO's and other cabin staff but these people are easy to replace for the most part as they don't require a lot of training or time to complete that training.

Ground crew is easier to replace than an FO. I was a ramper once, too, so at least I have a clue what I'm talking about.

As far as real wage for real work let me tell you a story. I went into the fbo where I do my flight training looking for some mechanics work between working my other contracts they offered me 8 dollars an hour. now I'm not complaining about the offer, it was only side work mind you but I know what they are charging people and what they are paying people. they were charging 75 an hour to the customers, paying a helper 8 dollars an hour, paying the A&P 15 an hour, an A&P with IA 20 an hour, and the chief of maintenance 25 an hour.

So you took the job? Sounds like mechanics are just as happy to be paid "serf wages" as FOs.....

when I started flight training my instructor was being paid 15 an hour when the school was charging 40. the school only paid starting instructors 10 an hour. the point people will always be wage slaves when they can't afford to leave and their is no where else to go that pays well.

You also have to take other considerations into the pay. An instructor that makes $40 an hour freelancing has to handle his own advertising to get students, carry his own insurance and find his own airplanes. Insurance is a BIG chunk of that $25/hr difference.

In closing, if you're gonna talk about people only entering the enlisted military ranks b/c they're stupid and ignorant, you might wanna proofread your posts a little better. No, make that a LOT better. Misuse of tenses, words spelled wrong, I lost count of the number of run-on sentences and overall poor use of punctuation. At least we know why YOU enlisted....

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Agreed on all counts. I understand jtrain's pessimism, as he's suffering through a furlough, but I don't believe he is providing people with an unbiased and unemotional viewpoint. His views in this thread, IMHO, are colored by his resentment over what has happened to his job at XJT. Things aren't as bad as they seem. And 120-seat airplanes at regionals? I think not.

I hate to say it man, but I think you're wrong here. We don't want to see 120-seaters at the "Regionals", but I think we'll see it eventually anyways.

Either that, or a glut of 74 and 90 seaters... and a parking of many of the existing 120 seaters.

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

I hate to say it man, but I think you're wrong here. We don't want to see 120-seaters at the "Regionals", but I think we'll see it eventually anyways.

Either that, or a glut of 74 and 90 seaters... and a parking of many of the existing 120 seaters.

What kind of analytical thought process are you using to come to this conclusion? Why in the world would mainline pilots give up scope again? 120 seats at the regionals? What mainline pilot group are you thinking is going to do that? Are you kidding me? Shoot over at CAL they're still at 50 seats, assuming the Qs don't count.

This statement you just made is exactly why I think you guys are being highly pessimistic. It just isn't logical.

"Regional Pilots welcome to the rest of your career" I think not. In 5 years the Member Announcements section will be booming with people moving up, if not earlier....

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by 777forever

What kind of analytical thought process are you using to come to this conclusion? Why in the world would mainline pilots give up scope again? 120 seats at the regionals? What mainline pilot group are you thinking is going to do that? Are you kidding me? Shoot over at CAL they're still at 50 seats, assuming the Qs don't count.

This statement you just made is exactly why I think you guys are being highly pessimistic. It just isn't logical.

"Regional Pilots welcome to the rest of your career" I think not. In 5 years the Member Announcements section will be booming with people moving up, if not earlier....

It is 50 seats at AMR too. But the funny thing is more then 50.1% pilots fly planes bigger then 150 seats. That means they more then likely will give up scope for pay and pension. I hope he is wrong but I think he is right.

At this rate in five years most of us are going to be waiting to upgrade.

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

It is 50 seats at AMR too. But the funny thing is more then 50.1% pilots fly planes bigger then 150 seats. That means they more then likely will give up scope for pay and pension. I hope he is wrong but I think he is right.

At this rate in five years most of us are going to be waiting to upgrade.

Eagle flies CR7s....

50% of the 50.1% of the pilots flying planes bigger than 150 seats are FOs and would probably like to upgrade sometime. Pretty sure eliminating all planes under 150 seats would decrease that chance greatly.

I know I'm not the only one that thinks the idea of regionals flying 120 seat planes is silly. The guys at the majors are now regretting letting the RJs go to the regionals. It would be purely asinine for them to let even more scope go.

I believe the new Delta/NWA agreement tightened scope. So there goes one strike against the 120 seat theory. I know for a fact all the Delta pilots on this board would gladly fly the CR7 and/or the CR9. I'm pretty sure they would all vote a big NO if management came with a plan to send the everything 120 seats and lower to the regionals.

Management has gotten all the concessions they can out of labor. They will have to look elsewhere to reduce cost.

As far as the future, this is what I believe will happen.

There's almost no room left to cut cost. There's too much competition out there resulting in too much capacity. As a result the market will balance itself out eventually because it will just be survival of the fitest. The airlines will just compete to lose the least amount of money until enough carriers fail.

The good news? Even with all the furloughs and future airline failures there is still not enough pilots to replace the aging baby boomers. Age 65 was just a temporary fix. The hiring boom we saw last year was just a glimpse of the madhouse we have awaiting...