"Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Career

[greaper007]

Originally Posted by planesiscool

I haven't been able to read this entire thread but I have some what of a different take, and perhaps I am wrong. I see all these small regionals folding up and losing money. I also hear about big airlines wanting to use bigger planes and less frequent flights because RJs are hard to make money with with such a high cost of fuel. If oil stays at $90-100/bbl then I don't see how, from a profitability stand point, airlines can continue to justify using large amounts of RJs. Then again this is the airlines and profitability has not been part of their decision making in recent years.

You're completely right plane, the only thing is a lot of these company's seem to be replacing mainline flying with LARGE rj's. Planes like the E170, 190 CRJ700,900. These planes are very close in size to yesterday's mainline planes like DC-9's and Fokker 100's. The only difference is the regional paycheck and benefits are not close in size.

[higney85]

Originally Posted by greaper007

You're completely right plane, the only thing is a lot of these company's seem to be replacing mainline flying with LARGE rj's. Planes like the E170, 190 CRJ700,900. These planes are very close in size to yesterday's mainline planes like DC-9's and Fokker 100's. The only difference is the regional paycheck and benefits are not close in size.

I agree with this statement 100%. Just want to add to benefits, paycheck, JOB SECURITY, RETIREMENT, and a FUTURE.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by woodreau

You can start with an OUPV - that's the entry level one anyway - that will allow you to run fishing charters.

But if you're in it for the money - you need to look at working cargo ships. There's no money in running passenger ships - plus you have to deal with more BS from the self-loading cargo.

Do these cargo ships have autopilot? I need two hands to hold my coffee cup AND my newspaper.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

Another thing that you should probably be insulted/embarrased by is that I, who currently work for the same company you work for, will probably make as much, or more, as a first year ramp rat, than many FO's will make. When I was a ramp rat for XJT, we had an agent, who by working quite a bit of over-time (paid at 1.5 x payrate), made as much, or more than many XJT captains had made that year. I made more than guarantee pay for any first year FO, and could have made as much, or more, than a 2-3rd year FO, with a little over-time (and there was alway tons of over-time)

Its sad when the person loading the bags, and dumping the lavs, etc., are making as much, or more, than the people flying the airplanes.

That's a point, to be sure. Granted, I think the ramp agents are worth every penny. They do a thankless job in horrid weather at all hours of the day. Without them doing their job, I can't do my job.

I do agree though- the disparity in pay when you consider the level of training and responsibility is inadequate.

Pilots have been suckered in by the concept that they'll ascend to the "big leagues" quickly and just have to slug it out for a year or two on nothing.

Just goes to show- you're not paid what you're worth.. you're paid what you negotiate.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Sorta like what NWA is doing with Compass and Mesaba. A lot of the gates I see -900s and 175s parked at in MEM used to have DC-9s parked there. That's not that big a deal....until you look at the board and see the destination ALSO used to be a DC-9 route. Someone asked me if Pinnacle was hurting b/c of all the flying we're losing to XJ and Compass. When I looked, we really haven't lost that much to them except on the -200 side in MSP. NWA mainline has taken it on the chin a LOT worse than we have. 9E never did MSP-ORD or other similar routes. Management has seen a way to cut costs by shifting mainline flying down to the regional level with the "large regional jets." Like it or not, that trend doesn't seem to be stopping.

Exactly my point.

EQUAL WORK FOR EQUAL PAY. As long as the "get up and get out" mentality exists, we'll never make any ground in improving things for Regional pilots.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Do those rampers / gate agents have to get a medical certificate for the rest of their life, every 12 months?

Do those rampers / gate agents have to go through recurrent every 6 months to show that they can still perform the job - in essence - to show that they do not need to be let go because they suck at flying a box?

Do those rampers / gate agents have a certificate that can quickly be revoked or suspended by a federal agency?

The answer to each and every one of your above questions, is no. And that is why it is ridiculous that many of them are, in fact, making as much, or more, than you, the pilot.

Anybody can come off of the street, and become a ramp rat, gate agent, or ticket agent, and not just anybody can come fly the airplane .... so why are these agents making as much or more than those people responsible for flying the airplane, and the passengers lives.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

That's a point, to be sure. Granted, I think the ramp agents are worth every penny. They do a thankless job in horrid weather at all hours of the day. Without them doing their job, I can't do my job.

I do agree though- the disparity in pay when you consider the level of training and responsibility is inadequate.

Pilots have been suckered in by the concept that they'll ascend to the "big leagues" quickly and just have to slug it out for a year or two on nothing.

Just goes to show- you're not paid what you're worth.. you're paid what you negotiate.

As someone who has worked as a ramp/gate/ticket agent, for the last 2+ years, I can say that it is also a very underpaid job. The way I feel, however, can't compare to how you, the pilot, feels. I'm not in debt, nor did I have to go through any special training, nor do I have some special skill, to do my job, yet agents, like myself, everyday take home paychecks equal to, or greater than you, the pilot.

How does management get away with that?

[surreal1221]

Such is life. . .things will change, but only after we as a collective group of like minded individuals drive it.

[OldTownPilot]

I'm special.

[OldTownPilot]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

Anybody can come off of the street, and become a ramp rat, gate agent, or ticket agent,

I'd have to disagree.

I have tried to train a couple of people that would fall under the 'anybody' label.

Key word there: tried

I do get your point though.

Then again I don't think they would have lasted a month anywhere else. Except maybe back at the titty bar. And no, she was nothing to look at.

Joe, there was a reason I kept you away from that place

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

As someone who has worked as a ramp/gate/ticket agent, for the last 2+ years, I can say that it is also a very underpaid job. The way I feel, however, can't compare to how you, the pilot, feels. I'm not in debt, nor did I have to go through any special training, nor do I have some special skill, to do my job, yet agents, like myself, everyday take home paychecks equal to, or greater than you, the pilot.

How does management get away with that?

We allowed it to happen, partially. At the regional level, we've accepted less because it was temporary- we allowed ourselves to consider the experience gained as our incentive rather than pay.

That, and bankruptcy courts. Airline managements have been using underhanded bankruptcy processes and contract negotiations for years.

The term "breaking the union" is nearly as literal as it sounds.

[woodreau]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Do these cargo ships have autopilot? I need two hands to hold my coffee cup AND my newspaper.

It depends on the owner of the ship and whether they want to pay to have the equipment installed. But since george is much more efficient economically in driving the ship, I think most cargo and passenger ships do have an autopilot and autothrottle (well maybe not autothrottle - there's only four speed settings anyway - stop, slow, econ cruise, and fast.)

There's only two guys on the bridge anyways - the deck officer and a helmsman/lookout.

The helmsman "drives" the ship, you as the deck officer just make sure you don't run aground or run into another ship. There are a few other minor duties like talking on the radio.

You're responsible for the route - you just point and click with a mouse to tell the computer where you want to go and what time you want to get there or what speed to use to get there. The computer calculates the great circle route and speed. The helmsman just makes sure that george is following the route (line on the computer screen) and intervenes as necessary (like if you're going to hit another ship.)

As far as worrying about hitting another ship, you just set the guard zones around your ship to have the radar alarm when it detects another ship that will come too close to your vessel, so that you can take appropriate avoiding/maneuvering action. That way you don't have to monitor the surface radar either - unfortunately it usually doesn't pick up small ships like sailboats or pleasure craft very well - it means you have to play with the radar settings if you're really motivated to spend that much time looking for things like that, but it picks up all the metal stuff - self-propelled metal ones and ones semi-permanently attached to the bottom of the ocean (like oil rigs, buoys, racons, radar beacons, etc).

So in short, helmsman is watching george, the radar to set to alarm when another ship gets too close - helmsman drives where you tell him to drive if another ship does get too close - you will always have two hands free for your coffee and newspaper even in the heat of avoiding other traffic or terrain.

Your biggest responsibility is to stay on schedule, don't hit another ship and don't run aground - the last - you will have to get up to check that - the computer usually does give a warning if the calculated course goes through water that is too shallow, but that doesn't relieve you of the responsibility of double checking the depth of the water you're going through to see if it is really deep enough for your draft.

[skydog]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

>>MAJOR APPLAUSE<<

I agree wholeheartedly, sir. Getting the word out is priority one. Rally the masses and build an army.

So.. then... now what?

I doubt that it will work. People generally know that teachers aren't paid very much. When asked they'll likely tell you that teachers should get paid more than they do. Yet, at the next tax referendum, they'll vote it down. People talk big until they realize it is going to cost them. Then they shut up and go away.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by skydog

I doubt that it will work. People generally know that teachers aren't paid very much. When asked they'll likely tell you that teachers should get paid more than they do. Yet, at the next tax referendum, they'll vote it down. People talk big until they realize it is going to cost them. Then they shut up and go away.

Don't tell them it will come out of their pocket.

Tell them you want to raid the fatcat corporate bonuses, etc.

Seriously, if the financial gurus at airlines can't find a way to cough up a few million more a year to spread out over an entire labor group, they oughta be canned. That's THEIR job- to make the numbers dance. They do it every other which way. They just don't want to do it with labor groups, because they treat labor as variable cost and simply want to pay as little as possible.

[WalterSobchak]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

In days gone by, a young pilot may have spent a given period of time as a First Officer in small turboprop aircraft that could be legally operated by one pilot, the Captain. The only reason the First Officer was then required was not because the aircraft did- it was because the Federal Regulations governing airline operation required them. As such, a First Officer may often have been seen as an "extra" pilot, rather than an essential, safety-critical part of the operation. First Officer pay scales in the Regional Airlines still reflect that concept today, even when the First Officer in question is flying a jet that requires them by specification and is several times larger than a Regional airline equivalent of yesterday.

I agree with the majority of your post, however the FO pay of today reflects the wide variety of experience by new hire FO's. Way back when(not even that long ago) you had to have roughly 135 mins or more(and Im not talking VFR). When you have a large number of your pilot group that can't take a job as an photo pilot what are they worth? Time in airplanes is experience. If you have less than 1,000 hours you aren't contributing the same way the majors are. In fact you can't even be PIC for 135 or 121 ops so what do you pay that person? Puppy mill flight schools that pump out "airline pilots" are the management wet dream that is causing this. You get paid for what you know. If you are low time you don't know as much period. Not a bad thing it just comes with time. I could rant about this for hours an hours. I do think most payscales are a little on the low side, but not completely out of whack with the good carriers.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

I agree with the majority of your post, however the FO pay of today reflects the wide variety of experience by new hire FO's. Way back when(not even that long ago) you had to have roughly 135 mins or more(and Im not talking VFR). When you have a large number of your pilot group that can't take a job as an photo pilot what are they worth? Time in airplanes is experience. If you have less than 1,000 hours you aren't contributing the same way the majors are. In fact you can't even be PIC for 135 or 121 ops so what do you pay that person? Puppy mill flight schools that pump out "airline pilots" are the management wet dream that is causing this. You get paid for what you know. If you are low time you don't know as much period. Not a bad thing it just comes with time. I could rant about this for hours an hours. I do think most payscales are a little on the low side, but not completely out of whack with the good carriers.

Pay for First Officers should have nothing to do with their "worth" in terms of experience. Whatever your experience level is at date of hire, your level of responsibility just took a big step up.

As you said, we're not paid what we're worth or for what we do- we're paid for what we know. Given the training required and the decisions we make during the course of a given operation, pay should be based on that.

In other words- it sounds to me like you're saying a pilot should (or at least is) paid based on what they've done before- ie, cumulative experience. The problem with that concept, in my opinion, is that it has absolutely no bearing on what they're doing now.

Paid for what I know? I know how to handle the airplane I'm in right now. Therefore, how great or small my past experience is just became largely ambiguous.

[ChrisH]

You worked for Comair, correct? You are 100% correct. I guess I shouldn't say "anybody", because I have seen my fair share of people who couldn't do it. As you know, it can be a VERY stressful job at times. It surprises me the number of people who do it as a career. I don't see how I've done it for the past 2 years. I just keep telling myself that it is temporary, while I finish school, and that keeps me going, LOL!

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

I'd have to disagree.

I have tried to train a couple of people that would fall under the 'anybody' label.

Key word there: tried

I do get your point though.

Then again I don't think they would have lasted a month anywhere else. Except maybe back at the titty bar. And no, she was nothing to look at.

Joe, there was a reason I kept you away from that place

Firebird2XC,
I think you are correct, in that many people viewed the regional level as "temporary", and just a stepping stone. I think too many are willing to settle for lower pay, or accept pay cuts, for a quicker upgrade, or to fly a larger airplane, which they see as their quick ride to the next level. Unfortunately, even today, I think many regional pilots still have this view. I think the overall perspective on the regional airlines needs to change, as not being a stepping stone, but a place where one can, and may have to spend a career; thus, pay should indicate that.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

Firebird2XC,
I think you are correct, in that many people viewed the regional level as "temporary", and just a stepping stone. I think too many are willing to settle for lower pay, or accept pay cuts, for a quicker upgrade, or to fly a larger airplane, which they see as their quick ride to the next level. Unfortunately, even today, I think many regional pilots still have this view. I think the overall perspective on the regional airlines needs to change, as not being a stepping stone, but a place where one can, and may have to spend a career; thus, pay should indicate that.

Thank you. Spread the word- tell people how it really is. Help put a stop to Pilot Academies and Regional Airline Recruiters pulling the wool over our collective eyes.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

I agree with the majority of your post, however the FO pay of today reflects the wide variety of experience by new hire FO's. Way back when(not even that long ago) you had to have roughly 135 mins or more(and Im not talking VFR). When you have a large number of your pilot group that can't take a job as an photo pilot what are they worth? Time in airplanes is experience. If you have less than 1,000 hours you aren't contributing the same way the majors are. In fact you can't even be PIC for 135 or 121 ops so what do you pay that person? Puppy mill flight schools that pump out "airline pilots" are the management wet dream that is causing this. You get paid for what you know. If you are low time you don't know as much period. Not a bad thing it just comes with time. I could rant about this for hours an hours. I do think most payscales are a little on the low side, but not completely out of whack with the good carriers.

The odd thing is, most of those pay scales were negotiated when those mins were high. Seems the experience level has come down to meet the pay now....

[WalterSobchak]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Pay for First Officers should have nothing to do with their "worth" in terms of experience. Whatever your experience level is at date of hire, your level of responsibility just took a big step up.

So then every pilot every where in the industry should be paid the same because experience has nothing to do with it? Actually I beg to differ on taking more responsibility by being a regional FO. Personally I think you can screw up a lot easier in flight instructing and single pilot freight because you don't have a CA to baby sit if you mess up.

As you said, we're not paid what we're worth or for what we do- we're paid for what we know. Given the training required and the decisions we make during the course of a given operation, pay should be based on that.

What decisions do you make as an FO? FO's have imput into some of the decisions, but ultimately the "final authority" rests with the CA.

In other words- it sounds to me like you're saying a pilot should (or at least is) paid based on what they've done before- ie, cumulative experience. The problem with that concept, in my opinion, is that it has absolutely no bearing on what they're doing now.

What about when what you are doing carries less responsibility then what you have done? i.e. 1200 hrs min for 135 vs grab bag for 121 regional FO. see first comment if you don't get having more experience should = more pay.

Paid for what I know? I know how to handle the airplane I'm in right now. Therefore, how great or small my past experience is just became largely ambiguous.

There is more to it that physically manipulating the airplane. Now we have come full circle to the decision making process again. If your argument were the case then why have ATP mins at all? A 300 guy can physically manipulate an airplane to a safe landing. I'm sure you you have gained know insight from the time you had 300 hours till the point you are now. The blinders come off and you can see things before they happen and not just react. Every one wants the prize, but they don't want to run the race. Maybe one day Unicef will get into the regional airline business until then control what you can control. You don't have to go a company that won't compensate you just because the good ones turned you down or aren't hiring. Try instructing, try 135, try photo work, try ferrying, but don't whine when you go somewhere that doesn't treat you the way you want to be treated.

[WalterSobchak]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

The odd thing is, most of those pay scales were negotiated when those mins were high. Seems the experience level has come down to meet the pay now....

Other than the year after 9/11 name when the mins for a regional where high? What about 1000-1500 TT is high? Seriously you get nothing for nothing.

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

Other than the year after 9/11 name when the mins for a regional where high? What about 1000-1500 TT is high? Seriously you get nothing for nothing.

The mins after 9/11 were nothing compared to years past. In the early '90s, mins were astronomical for regionals. I believe someone recently posted an old FAPA (predecessor to Darby's Air Inc.) article that listed mins at ASA as 4500 TT.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

Try instructing, try 135, try photo work, try ferrying, but don't whine when you go somewhere that doesn't treat you the way you want to be treated.

The dynamics of the industry are changing. We have to change with them. If we're going to ride the wave to the crest, we have to start paddling before the wave actually gets to us.

As for the "whining"... a closed mouth doesn't get fed.

Folding your arms and standing in silent stoicism looks cool, but it will do absolutely nothing to affect change.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by greaper007

What are you doing for a living Mojo? I got into this career for the eventual high pay, not SJS. I watched my Dad with his schedule and his pay and figured I should go for it. I figured if I payed my dues my day would come. I think most of us feel that way. What Firebird is saying, which has been a sneaking suspicion of mine, is that that day may not come. After the last round of furloughs, there weren't any pilot groups that successfully took back their pay. Now the majors are furloughing again, and their pay is lower than it was 10 years ago. I'm afraid that without a strong change of course from the feds in terms of allowing strikes, we won't ever get that pay back. If that's the case then these last few years of eating Mac'n'Cheese have been totally in vain. That's my biggest worry.

Which is why even though I agree that we knew our pay from the onset, I think we should push for higher pay. It looks like I'm going to be stuck in the right seat at Colgan for much longer than I intended. Who knows when I'll ever make the jump to the majors. In the meantime if the majors are going to push more flying on to the regionals we need to stand up and demand appropriate rates for that flying.

I'm instructing, with about 1600TT. I still like it and aside from the 100 degree Augusts, it is pretty nice for me. I have been working in GA for 6 years and have seen the ups and downs of the industry. Like I posted before, I looked at the payscale and the treatment of pilots and decided that an airline gig wasn't for me. There are plenty of other flying jobs out there. I know my training and experience is worth more than what the regionals are paying and in the end couldn't justify it, even if it was a stepping stone (which it looks like it won't be any time soon).

I met a guy in 2003 that got hired by ASA in like 1997, flew a while, got furloughed, he did something else, went back to flying, furloughed. It made me sick that a guy with his experience was going through an endless cycle of BS. It nearly made me quit my flight training and save for law school.

I realize that now that you guys are where you are, you want something better. I completely understand that. I think you have to be realistic. Most of these companies are operating on a razor's edge right now. What action can you take that will motivate them to change and not price the company in to the ground. You are in a lose-lose situation and I don't see a way to fix it.

Any action you threaten them with, they will threaten you right back with the possibility of shutting the doors. Back to what I said before: You guys knew the payscale for the first 20 years by looking at some place like airlinepilotcentral, and knew what you were getting into. It is a little naive of you to think that in today's economy you have any power to make changes for the better.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

Any action you threaten them with, they will threaten you right back with the possibility of shutting the doors. Back to what I said before: You guys knew the payscale for the first 20 years by looking at some place like airlinepilotcentral, and knew what you were getting into. It is a little naive of you to think that in today's economy you have any power to make changes for the better.

Really? 'Cause I've got several sections of a new contract already TA'ed between the union and management that says you're wrong. It's not always about the $$$. Work rules, etc make a BIG difference. Too many guys get hung up on the hourly wage and get the wool pulled over their eyes. Fact is, you can go with a LOWER wage and make MORE with the right work rules. Plus it's pretty defeatist to simply throw your hands up and say "What's the use? I might as well live with it." I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I didn't at least try to make things better.