"Regional Airline Pilots: Welcome To The Rest Of Your Career

[greaper007]

Surreal, the dude can't even use proper sentence structures yet he's trying to convince us that he's better than "the poor."

I kind of get where he's coming from though. All those poor people have caused so many of this country's problems. Things like war profiteering, pollution, shipping jobs out of the country. I really hate those poor people. Every time I fly over a trailer park or a monster truck rally I wish I had a bomb to drop on those d-bags.

[kgflyboy]

Originally Posted by flyinguitar

It's good that you recognize that many poor people were at one point middle class, but had a round of bad luck.

However, for people who have always been poor, the causes are even more varied and complex. The qualities you stated (lazy, inept, wasteful with money) will certainly be found among some, but you will also find many others such as:...

Great post! I'm glad someone took the time to explain the flaws in his logic and provide links for additional info. I wasn't sure if anyone else would realize how ridiculous his statements were when I first attempted to point it out.

Only thing I feel like adding is that most people spend their whole lives in the social class they were born into. I don't pretend to know the complex causes of poverty, but I do know that people born wealthy stay wealthy, people born into middle class stay middle class, and people born poor usually stay poor (obviously there are some exceptions). For whatever reason, the poorer you are to start with, the harder it is to get out of poverty.

Poverty has far more to do with how our economy tends to keep people in the same social class than with the supposed laziness, ineptness, or wasteful spending habits of poor people.

[jima7011]

As an outsider looking in......................................

I am a fireman. A Paid fireman. There are volunteer firemen too. Thats part of our problem (from a union perspective) when it comes to pay and benefits.

You see--when there are people willing to do your job for free--a LOT of people willing to do your job for free--your pay suffers because the supply of "cheap" labor outsizes the more expensive paid labor. (Nothing against my volly brothers--it's just a fact that we live with). It doesn't matter that paid districts provide insurance benefits--local communites see the lack of a payroll as a cost savings which offsets the higher insurance premiums.

That's part of what I am seeing in the flying biz. There seems to be a huge number of people willing to get into an airline job for peanuts. I think that affects the pay for you guys. It's a matter of supply and demand. If everyone can do a job and the supply is inexhaustable, why on earth would management pay better? So turnover gets high--what they're saving on salaries more than apparently makes up for any losses of training investment. (Especially when they are making you take Jet courses to "weed out" undesirables).

Another thing I see from outside looking in--you guys are the most unorganized organized labor force I have ever seen. Pick your forum, here APC or others--pilot group a bashes pilot group b which hates pilot group c and it seems like you all are so busy arguing over "LUV buys the atc guys pizza so they get preferential treatment" or "Mesa guys are not riding my jumpseat" that your pilot groups can't get together and do something about your wages.

It seems to me that the management groups are not only winning--they may have already won since there is far more regional jets "clogging" the skies than mainline and they have you guys (your different pilot groups) fighting amongst yourselves over some real doozie arguments.

Until you guys organize--like you did in history back (Yes I read flying the line 1 and 2) there is very little chance of EVER seeing pay and benefits where they should be. As a "civilian" who flies the airlines more than regularly, I agree with you guys--you should be paid more and the standard should be higher. I personally think the Airline "Apocalyse" is coming soon. I think the market will be so flooded with applicants from "disposable" airlines that Firebird is correct--you should plan for a long stay in the Regionals-whatever forms they mutate into.

I say again--Until you guys bury the hatchet on stupid little things (the battles) get your pilot groups together on an agenda that will agree to you all--you will never have the power to win the war.

But that's me--Jim the GA pilot seeing things from the outside and sighing at the loss of a once proud and noble profession.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by b3181981

hey joined the military. I say the army enlisted is for the poor, stupid, ignorant, or anybody trying to get a leg up. it is kind of sad people have to put their lives and life on the line to get a head.

I need to get me some popcorn, cause this one might be good. Too bad Lloyd hasn't read this yet. Might be a tactical strike coming on.

[3green]

That's part of what I am seeing in the flying biz. There seems to be a huge number of people willing to get into an airline job for peanuts. I think that affects the pay for you guys. It's a matter of supply and demand. If everyone can do a job and the supply is inexhaustable, why on earth would management pay better? So turnover gets high--what they're saving on salaries more than apparently makes up for any losses of training investment. (Especially when they are making you take Jet courses to "weed out" undesirables).'

We are our own worse enemies. No other way to put it. And the companies know it too. We pilots as a highly trained and skilled work force accepted these conditions when we were hired. I'm not saying that we were wrong for taking the job, but we are perpetuating the situation and continuing the cycle. As others have mentioned we keep showing up to the game, hence management knows this and won't raise pay...

The luster of flying for regional goes away quick when you go to order your "value-meal" at McDees in the airport and realize hour per dollar that the kid behind the counter makes more than you. And they get to sleep in their own bed every night to boot!

[killbilly]

As yet another outsider looking in, I have a suggestion...

ALPA (for that matter - ALL of the pilot labor groups) need to go on a MASSIVE marketing blitz.

I talk to a lot of my fellow business travelers. Many of them have zero clue that they're a) flying on a regional jet b) that the crew's QoL/Pay are what they are and c) are generally shocked when I tell them what the crews are generally paid for the schedules they work, even beyond first-year pay. I've been a heavy frequent flyer for 15 years, but I only learned about this stuff since coming to JC almost two years ago.

To the man, they have all said, (and I'm paraphrasing) "Wow, that sucks! I don't want a pilot paid so little flying me and my family!"

There, I think, is your weapon. People are conditioned to believe that you guys are overpaid button-pushers who jet off to Paris on the weekends and shack up with 3 FAs at a time on your overnights.

But get the people paying the bills on your side, and management is going to pay more attention (and, potentially, money) if the public realizes the state of y'all's situation. They simply do not know, and they need to.

At the very least, it might garner you some public support the next time you have to hit the picket line.

Might even cut down on the SJS a bit. Could also contribute to FAA revisions to raise the minimums for 121 flying as well.

Just my .02 as a very regular customer of the services you guys provide. Matter of fact, I'm writing this in an airport right now.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by killbilly

As yet another outsider looking in, I have a suggestion...

ALPA (for that matter - ALL of the pilot labor groups) need to go on a MASSIVE marketing blitz.

I talk to a lot of my fellow business travelers. Many of them have zero clue that they're a) flying on a regional jet b) that the crew's QoL/Pay are what they are and c) are generally shocked when I tell them what the crews are generally paid for the schedules they work, even beyond first-year pay. I've been a heavy frequent flyer for 15 years, but I only learned about this stuff since coming to JC almost two years ago.

To the man, they have all said, (and I'm paraphrasing) "Wow, that sucks! I don't want a pilot paid so little flying me and my family!"

There, I think, is your weapon. People are conditioned to believe that you guys are overpaid button-pushers who jet off to Paris on the weekends and shack up with 3 FAs at a time on your overnights.

But get the people paying the bills on your side, and management is going to pay more attention (and, potentially, money) if the public realizes the state of y'all's situation. They simply do not know, and they need to.

At the very least, it might garner you some public support the next time you have to hit the picket line.

Might even cut down on the SJS a bit. Could also contribute to FAA revisions to raise the minimums for 121 flying as well.

Just my .02 as a very regular customer of the services you guys provide. Matter of fact, I'm writing this in an airport right now.

>>MAJOR APPLAUSE<<

I agree wholeheartedly, sir. Getting the word out is priority one. Rally the masses and build an army.

So.. then... now what?

[greaper007]

I agree fear is a great attention getter. We have to follow it up with something else though. The only thing that I think is going to work is moving towards solidarity as a pilot group. Regardless of which airline we're at

Unfortunately I don't see this happening soon. Just by observing the pilots over here at Colgan with the ALPA vs Teamsters. The majority of the people I talk to who are against ALPA say it's because they don't want to be the same union as the Pinnacle Pilots. We have to work together, regional vs regional and regional vs major. Or we're going to keep failing together.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by greaper007

I agree fear is a great attention getter. We have to follow it up with something else though. The only thing that I think is going to work is moving towards solidarity as a pilot group. Regardless of which airline we're at

Unfortunately I don't see this happening soon. Just by observing the pilots over here at Colgan with the ALPA vs Teamsters. The majority of the people I talk to who are against ALPA say it's because they don't want to be the same union as the Pinnacle Pilots. We have to work together, regional vs regional and regional vs major. Or we're going to keep failing together.

Agreed... I'm thinking.. airport billboard campaign.

ie... you know those ads in jetbridges?

Exactly.

"The airplane you're about to get on is flown by an aircrew who got only X hours of time off last night. Only X hours were able to be used for sleeping."

"The aircrew working hard for your safety makes an average wage of X dollars per hour" (factor in the "ground time" hours we aren't paid full wage rates for...)

"The flight attendants make even less....."

[Cactus_Cutter]

Don’t expect too much public sympathy in your campaign.

Management has a very good tactical advantage with the flying public. Combined with ever changing fees, lack of service, low employee morale, rotten attitudes, and actions of TSA at security checkpoints has created commercial airline travel something similar to a Gestapo DMV. After going through that do you think the flying public is going to be sympathetic to our plight? F-No! They are going to still try to find the lowest fare online because they want to make sure they are paying the cheapest and not pay one red cent more than the next guy to go through that experience again. Management knows and uses this to whipsaw labor inline to their own means.
Yes the perceptions of all pilots from the flying public are different than reality. I just tell them what they want to hear. One guy asked me how bad are things for us. I told him now I have to fly twice a month to my second home in Oahu to work on the yard and pool because I had to let my house staff go.

Cheap fun but it’s the only fun I can afford…

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by Cactus_Cutter

Don’t expect too much public sympathy in your campaign.

Management has a very good tactical advantage with the flying public. Combined with ever changing fees, lack of service, low employee morale, rotten attitudes, and actions of TSA at security checkpoints has created commercial airline travel something similar to a Gestapo DMV. After going through that do you think the flying public is going to be sympathetic to our plight? F-No! They are going to still try to find the lowest fare online because they want to make sure they are paying the cheapest and not pay one red cent more than the next guy to go through that experience again. Management knows and uses this to whipsaw labor inline to their own means.
Yes the perceptions of all pilots from the flying public are different than reality. I just tell them what they want to hear. One guy asked me how bad are things for us. I told him now I have to fly twice a month to my second home in Oahu to work on the yard and pool because I had to let my house staff go.

Cheap fun but it’s the only fun I can afford…

Don't confuse fear-mongering with fact-building. And you wouldn't be able to market this way within the airport structure. It would have to be a mass-market message; TV, print, radio.

The people will create their own fear, honestly. Don't underestimate the intelligence of the public in this regard. Just tell them the truth, back it with facts. Don't even go emotional. They'll get it.

More importantly, your business travelers are the meat of your business, I believe, and they will most assuredly get it.

I know I do a lot of cheerleading for SWA - but there is a damn good reason for it, and it has very little to do with the fares. Ironically, they have a relatively happy labor group, too. Go figure.

[Trip7]

Just my opinion....

The public won't care...

Most pilots don't care....

The regionals are a stepping stone to most which leads to...

Most people not caring....

Besides with the economy the way it is right now what benefits are there to gain from some mini crusade to up wages?

Better try in about...5 years when the age 65ers start retiring...

Peace!

[cfii2007]

Originally Posted by 777forever

Just my opinion....

The public won't care...

Most pilots don't care....

The regionals are a stepping stone to most which leads to...

Most people not caring....

Besides with the economy the way it is right now what benefits are there to gain from some mini crusade to up wages?

Better try in about...5 years when the age 65ers start retiring...

Peace!

Yes, but by then the airlines will be complaining about the pilot "shortage" and pressure the FAA for one man cockpits......

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by 777forever

The regionals are a stepping stone to most which leads to...

Most people not caring....

Which is something else we need to educate in the pilot group. The music has stopped. Period. That "stepping stone" has now become a place you're gonna spend 3-5 years at unless something dramatic happens. All those commercial pilots hoping for a shot at the regionals just had 340+ more qualified applicants put right in front of them from XJT alone. Factor in the other regionals that have furloughed/are planning on it, and there's not much movement going on from the CFI level upward except in 135 ops. None of the major airlines are hiring right now, so attrition is at a more or less stand still at the regionals barring retirements, people saying "screw this" or the extremely lucky ones that get on with an operation like Netjets, Emirates, etc.

The "its just a stepping stone" argument ticks me off to no end. I don't wanna spend the rest of my career at a regional airline either, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to get used and abused while I'm here. Since my time here has been extended, I REALLY don't wanna get used and abused.

[ready2fly]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Which is something else we need to educate in the pilot group. The music has stopped. Period. That "stepping stone" has now become a place you're gonna spend 3-5 years at unless something dramatic happens. All those commercial pilots hoping for a shot at the regionals just had 340+ more qualified applicants put right in front of them from XJT alone. Factor in the other regionals that have furloughed/are planning on it, and there's not much movement going on from the CFI level upward except in 135 ops. None of the major airlines are hiring right now, so attrition is at a more or less stand still at the regionals barring retirements, people saying "screw this" or the extremely lucky ones that get on with an operation like Netjets, Emirates, etc.

The "its just a stepping stone" argument ticks me off to no end. I don't wanna spend the rest of my career at a regional airline either, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to get used and abused while I'm here. Since my time here has been extended, I REALLY don't wanna get used and abused.

A-FREAKING-men, Steve!!

Well said!!

[Cruise]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Which is something else we need to educate in the pilot group. The music has stopped. Period. That "stepping stone" has now become a place you're gonna spend 3-5 years at unless something dramatic happens. All those commercial pilots hoping for a shot at the regionals just had 340+ more qualified applicants put right in front of them from XJT alone. Factor in the other regionals that have furloughed/are planning on it, and there's not much movement going on from the CFI level upward except in 135 ops. None of the major airlines are hiring right now, so attrition is at a more or less stand still at the regionals barring retirements, people saying "screw this" or the extremely lucky ones that get on with an operation like Netjets, Emirates, etc.

The "its just a stepping stone" argument ticks me off to no end. I don't wanna spend the rest of my career at a regional airline either, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to get used and abused while I'm here. Since my time here has been extended, I REALLY don't wanna get used and abused.

Damn straight man!!!!!

This "stepping stone" becomes more a career every day. Doesn't mean I want to spend the rest of my days slogging it out in the trenches....but harsh reality of the matter is the majority of us will do just that. It pisses me off as well to hear the "I'm not spending my career here" guys. OK good luck w/ that. You better believe I will be doing whatever I can to escape the regional world when (if) the music ever starts playing again....but in the meantime, I will be doing everything I can to improve the regional workplace. This IS a career.....hopefully it's not gonna be mine, but I'm going to plan for the worst and work towards the best.

Wake up people, we need to start changing the professioal pilot collective attitude towards this "stepping stone" mentality. Better do whatever you can to improve work rules/ payrates.....'cause chances are you're going to be at the regional level much longer than originally planned, and YOU'RE GONNA NEED 'EM!

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by 777forever

Just my opinion....
The public won't care...
Most pilots don't care....
The regionals are a stepping stone to most which leads to...
Most people not caring....
Besides with the economy the way it is right now what benefits are there to gain from some mini crusade to up wages?
Better try in about...5 years when the age 65ers start retiring...
Peace!

Think again. Right now, the AA pilot union is watching AMR circle their most sacred contract clauses like a bleeding surfer in a circle of sharks.

The "staffing floor" and various scope clauses... may well be history AND soon. Why? Because the AA/APA kids are too expensive. They're gonna go get some new kids... or.. in my opinion, continue to swell Eagle up from beneath them... for the time being, anyhow.

Then they'll start trying to subcontract out more Eagle flying.. and the cycle goes on, and on, etc..

The status quo of airline pilot career progression has no guaranteed timeline, has no guarantee of future development, and no guarantee of a static industry.

Wake up and smell the coffee man.

[woodreau]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Ahh, yes. The Chamonix II, I believe she's called. There's something on one of my calendars about swimming on that thing next month. I'll have to look into it.

I'm glad you think I did well. I had a fairly dim idea of what I was doing and little more.

We should do it again sometime soon. I had a blast. If only the weather hadn't sent us back to port, eh?

What does it take to get a sailor's license? Is there money in it?

You can start with an OUPV - that's the entry level one anyway - that will allow you to run fishing charters.

But if you're in it for the money - you need to look at working cargo ships. There's no money in running passenger ships - plus you have to deal with more BS from the self-loading cargo.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

The other day I was chatting up a pretty gal who tends bar at night to pay for her masters degree. Her day job? Financial planner. She told me her boss's secretary makes twice what I do.

I was insulted and embarrassed.. but not because of what she said. I was insulted to think that my value as a highly proficient aviator is worth half that of someone who answers phones and types memos all day. I was embarrassed because myself and those like me have let it happen on our watch.

Another thing that you should probably be insulted/embarrased by is that I, who currently work for the same company you work for, will probably make as much, or more, as a first year ramp rat, than many FO's will make. When I was a ramp rat for XJT, we had an agent, who by working quite a bit of over-time (paid at 1.5 x payrate), made as much, or more than many XJT captains had made that year. I made more than guarantee pay for any first year FO, and could have made as much, or more, than a 2-3rd year FO, with a little over-time (and there was alway tons of over-time)

Its sad when the person loading the bags, and dumping the lavs, etc., are making as much, or more, than the people flying the airplanes.

[surreal1221]

Do those rampers / gate agents have to get a medical certificate for the rest of their life, every 12 months?

Do those rampers / gate agents have to go through recurrent every 6 months to show that they can still perform the job - in essence - to show that they do not need to be let go because they suck at flying a box?

Do those rampers / gate agents have a certificate that can quickly be revoked or suspended by a federal agency?

[mojo6911]

You can't really complain, at this point. They offered you a crappy pay scale, and you guys all took it. A majority of the people that took these RJ jobs wouldn't have gotten them at 3 years ago with 800/100, or even 1200/200.

No one forced you to work there, and that is the problem. Too many people with SJS, or other motivations that will sacrifice their credit, their family, and other things in life to fly for a RJ company for 18-20k a year and then get shown the door after a year.

I know it sounds harsh, and I don't mean to minimize your frustrations, but you were obviously motivated by something besides better pay for your peers. SJS? That seems to be what you alluded to in the first post. I was there at some point, too. I thought about it very hard and almost took the plunge. I had to really look at myself in the mirror and ask if it was worth it.

18-20k a year? No. Being away from home? No. Flying in a company where I am just a number? No. Once I got to this point, I decided it wasn't worth it. Although I am still puttering around in Cessnas and Seminoles, I am enjoying my life a lot more than I would as an airline pilot and get paid much more. I get to stay at home every night and set my own schedule.

I guess the point I am trying to make is the same point that others have posted: Even though the pay and industry sucks, as long as they are hiring, there will be droves of people lined up at the door to get in. As long as this is true, nothing will ever change.

[surreal1221]

It will continue to be viewed as complaining, rather than conversation about the industry. The trend continues.

My questions still stand though. . .do those individuals subject themselves by nature of federal regulations to the same or similar standards as professional pilots, not just 121 pilots.

[greaper007]

What are you doing for a living Mojo? I got into this career for the eventual high pay, not SJS. I watched my Dad with his schedule and his pay and figured I should go for it. I figured if I payed my dues my day would come. I think most of us feel that way. What Firebird is saying, which has been a sneaking suspicion of mine, is that that day may not come. After the last round of furloughs, there weren't any pilot groups that successfully took back their pay. Now the majors are furloughing again, and their pay is lower than it was 10 years ago. I'm afraid that without a strong change of course from the feds in terms of allowing strikes, we won't ever get that pay back. If that's the case then these last few years of eating Mac'n'Cheese have been totally in vain. That's my biggest worry.

Which is why even though I agree that we knew our pay from the onset, I think we should push for higher pay. It looks like I'm going to be stuck in the right seat at Colgan for much longer than I intended. Who knows when I'll ever make the jump to the majors. In the meantime if the majors are going to push more flying on to the regionals we need to stand up and demand appropriate rates for that flying.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Then they'll start trying to subcontract out more Eagle flying.. and the cycle goes on, and on, etc..

Sorta like what NWA is doing with Compass and Mesaba. A lot of the gates I see -900s and 175s parked at in MEM used to have DC-9s parked there. That's not that big a deal....until you look at the board and see the destination ALSO used to be a DC-9 route. Someone asked me if Pinnacle was hurting b/c of all the flying we're losing to XJ and Compass. When I looked, we really haven't lost that much to them except on the -200 side in MSP. NWA mainline has taken it on the chin a LOT worse than we have. 9E never did MSP-ORD or other similar routes. Management has seen a way to cut costs by shifting mainline flying down to the regional level with the "large regional jets." Like it or not, that trend doesn't seem to be stopping.

[planesiscool]

I haven't been able to read this entire thread but I have some what of a different take, and perhaps I am wrong. I see all these small regionals folding up and losing money. I also hear about big airlines wanting to use bigger planes and less frequent flights because RJs are hard to make money with with such a high cost of fuel. If oil stays at $90-100/bbl then I don't see how, from a profitability stand point, airlines can continue to justify using large amounts of RJs. Then again this is the airlines and profitability has not been part of their decision making in recent years.