ALPA National Officers and Employees Salaries

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

What the hell happened to you, merit? You leave the industry and suddenly you're anti-ALPA?

So one question about the organization and he's anti alpa? Damn dude....simma

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

I reject this entire premise. ALPA is not a business. ALPA is a union that exists for the sole purposes of defending and advancing the profession and protecting the membership. Unlike a business, there is no profit motive. Some pilots may like to take the cynical stance and believe that ALPA is really just another business, but as a rep that spent considerable amounts of time working at the national level, I can tell you that no one in Herndon thinks of the union as a business. It is a service and a brotherhood, even if the cynical don't want to believe that.

Let me clarify to explain my "ALPA is a business" statement.

ALPA is a non-profit entity set up to advance the profession and protect membership. Got it.

The Midwest Ear Institute is a non-profit entity set up to perform cochlear implants, advance technology and research in hearing and ear related disorders, and provide advanced neuro-otology care regardless of a patients ability to pay.

BOTH ARE BUSINESSES. A business is not a cynical undertaking, and calling something a business does not a cynic make. Non-profit is simply a tax designation - nothing more. ALPA generates income, does not pay tax, and must use this income toward their stated purpose. The Ear Institute generates income and donations, doesn't pay tax, and uses the "profits" to fund programs, capital equipment, etc. The underlying business must produce something of value regardless of their tax-filing status. I understand your not wanting to call ALPA a business, but I firmly believe it (and all non-profits) should be run like one. Not all business is bad - and the officers of ALPA certainly make money like leaders of a business, the income generated is significant like a business...so, like a business - how are you measuring success and measuring the leadership charged with delivering it? That is all I am asking.

[ATN_Pilot]

Well, I understand what you're saying, but we need to be careful not to measure a union's success based on its revenue generation as you would with a for-profit business. The success of a union must be measures on somewhat more intangible items. What bills has Congress passed to benefit our profession, how many members' jobs have been saved, how many grievances have been settled/won, etc... You can't put a dollar figure on most of this, so quantifying it isn't as easy as looking at a corporation's balance sheet.

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Well, I understand what you're saying, but we need to be careful not to measure a union's success based on its revenue generation as you would with a for-profit business. The success of a union must be measures on somewhat more intangible items. What bills has Congress passed to benefit our profession, how many members' jobs have been saved, how many grievances have been settled/won, etc... You can't put a dollar figure on most of this, so quantifying it isn't as easy as looking at a corporation's balance sheet.

I understand about the revenue generation being difficult to quantify as a success for ALPA except in the broadest sense in that revenue generation, as a percentage of members wages, will reflect trends in both pilot income and success at recruiting more members. These are two important measurements to take when viewing ALPA, but like all business there are MANY metrics to be measured to see if the organizations goals are being met. So, looking at revenue is an important measurement, but certainly not the only measurement and perhaps not the most important to the mission except for the fact that it enables the mission. At the ear institute, gross patient charges are measured as an indicator of growth - each gain in income provides a very general indicator that we are consistently helping more people. We measure this growth on top-line patient charges, not bottom line because that would include insurance allowances and charity care and not give a good picture of growth.

The intangible CAN be measured, and should not only be measured but also reported to members. How many pilots won grievances - easy to update and measure. How many medicals have been reinstated by ALPA medical - easy to update and measure. New membership drives and success - easy to measure and project new revenue that will help ALL ALPA members. Then, the truly hard things to quantify can be explained such as the lobbying, safety work, etc. ALPA could measure these things and report to members (maybe they already do) and I would imagine that IBT, APA, SWAPA, and others would have a difficult time matching the success.

If you can't measure it, you can't manage it. Math is our friend

Iam sure that ALPA IS measuring these things - I am just curious as to how well informed the membership is about the measurement and what the membership can do if key performance metrics for the organization erode.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Kinda tough for the Ds to do much, in the Senate. Most things require a 60% vote, and they have the majority by 1. That's not 60% if things fall along party lines.

First, thanks for noticing the amazingly high compensation figures for some of our executives.

Second, don't use logic. People must have a scapegoat to blame all their problems on, even when they don't understand our political system in this country.

[Capt. Caucasian]

Originally Posted by Orange Anchor

But I do find it interesting that you remember the vote but nothing else. i guess that happens.

I've been dwelling on this statement all day long. Are you insinuating something brother?

This something I can't let go. I voted on soooooo many things when I was a Rep and that was a long time ago (six years, three airlines back) that I can hardly be expected to remember the details of what I considered a very minor vote. The change was negligible. It was so minor to me that it ranks up there with votes on whether or not to take a five or ten minute break.

The most important votes I was a part of concerned providing healthcare coverage for our furloughed pilots, whether to submit a TA for ratification, and if a strike vote was needed yet. Also, the many jobs that I saved were much more important to me.

I can't remember what exactly my W-2 was two years ago, how can I expect to remember what some other dudes is from six years ago? Also, I have worked under no less than six contracts with four airlines. I sure as ##### can't remember what my own pay rate was back when I was a third year RJ FO. I can ball park it, but that's it.

[MusketeerMan]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

So one question about the organization and he's anti alpa? Damn dude....simma

Does this surprise you? You're written off by him if you dare talk down to ALPA or question them about anything...though said person is not a dues paying member of ALPA. (By choice) Go figure.

[Orange Anchor]

Originally Posted by Capt. Caucasian

Ah, you might know a good friend of mine's dad with a last name of Ellot. He did the commute also for a few years before he got fed up in the early nineties. Also, I flew with a few x-Piedmont ATL guys at airline number one of four, Pace Airlines (Piedmont-Hawthorne).

THAD?? I got stories about Thad... got to fly once with him in his Maule and flew with him on the line. Very interesting fellow to fly with...

And if you were with Pace, you know "Good good good", right? Stories there also.

PI was a good place to be. It wasn't just work.. it was a good place to be. Then came what all three pilot groups will concede was a train wreck. It steadily went downhill after that as far how the company treated the employees but I met some of the best guys. And our training dept was a great place to work.

Our training boss when I was there put it bluntly when he said, "You are a servant to the line pilot. IF there is an unsat on a ride, the first place we come is to you, the instructor. You WILL do whatever is needed to send that pilot back to the line a better pilot."

We didn't get to the point where guys liked going to training but we did achieve a level that guys/gals coming in knew they were going to learn, we are not going to shovel them bull##### and call it candy, and they were going to get a fair evaluation. Guys who liked to play 'stump the dummy' or hammer guys in the sim got a quick attitude adjustment.

[Orange Anchor]

[quote=Capt. Caucasian;931391]I've been dwelling on this statement all day long. Are you insinuating something brother? [/qhote]

Nothing insinuated. You say you don't remember the amount but do remember thinking it was not out of line. And I think it odd that during a discussion of compensation, someone would have asked, "how much is this guy going to walk out the door with?" To me there is a paradox. It sort of reminds me of the old Senator Dirksen famous for his remarks about government spending, "A few billion hear. A few billion there and before long we are talking serious money!"

This something I can't let go.

I am not here to impugn your integrity or to suggest improper actions on your part. I can't put my hands (or internet hands) on the info but I too remember Dwayne receiving a total compensation package (car, pay, expense account, housing, etc.) being up near $500k at a time when guys were not only seeing pensions lost, pay rates being cut by 30% or more (and an even greater pay cut when someone lost his/her left seat and went back to the right seat).

You saw it one way. I saw it another. It ain't like this is Baghdad and we need to go on a jihad. Enjoy the day. I am. (long bike ride up at the Bud brewery with a bunch of retired Deltoids.)

[Capt. Caucasian]

Originally Posted by Orange Anchor

THAD?? I got stories about Thad... got to fly once with him in his Maule and flew with him on the line. Very interesting fellow to fly with...

And if you were with Pace, you know "Good good good", right? Stories there also.

Yup, Thad Jr. (actually the III) was my flight instructor. I got to do quite a bit of flying with Sr. in the Maule as well. What I remember most about him was telling us that "down in Moultrie real Maule pilots land on the ramp, I land on the ramp." Lord, I loved that plane.

I remember "Good", how about "Boss Hog"?

Sorry about the other thing but, I remember the ballpark number a couple of hundred thousand less. I just don't remember specifics. I know for sure that DW made less than the highest paid airline pilot in the country at the time. That honor went to a Delta MD-11 FO. He was the king of creative bidding.

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

The intangible CAN be measured, and should not only be measured but also reported to members. How many pilots won grievances - easy to update and measure.

You see, this is the problem. You think this is easy to measure, but it's actually impossible. What constitutes a "win?" Many people think of a grievance as either "won" or "lost," but it's not that simple. The overwhelming majority of grievances are settled and never reach arbitration. Some of them never even reach System Board. With a grievance settlement, there is give and take, just like negotiations. So how do you determine who "won?" What I would call a "win" would be considered a wash or a even a loss by someone else. Even when a grievance goes all the way to arbitration, there are no clear "winners" in many cases. Remember, grievance arbitrators don't operate under the same principles of "baseball-style arbitration." In other words, they aren't required to pick one side's argument over the other's. They can pick something in the middle, they can go even further than one side argued, they can even issue rulings on parts of the contract that weren't even referenced in the grievance filing or the briefs. It gets very muddy, and picking a clear "winner" is impossible in many cases. Quantifying this isn't workable.

How many medicals have been reinstated by ALPA medical - easy to update and measure.

Again, not an accurate way of measuring the work that is done by ALPA Aeromedical, as most of their work doesn't involve reinstating medicals. Most of their work revolves around advice given to members long before their medical is ever in jeopardy. You can't quantify advice, other than to give just the sheer number of phone calls that they've received from members, and that isn't really a worthwhile number to report, as it doesn't give any relevant information.

New membership drives and success - easy to measure and project new revenue that will help ALL ALPA members.

It even gets muddy on this one, too. Remember, most ALPA pilot groups actually represent a drain on Association resources, not a net increase to the coffers. Revenue increases with the addition of new groups, but expenses exceed revenue for most ALPA pilot groups. For instance, if Colgan had joined ALPA last year, revenue would have started coming in from CJC, but ALPA's expenses to represent CJC would be higher than the revenue that they produce. That means that ALPA's cash position would actually be less today as a result of obtaining this new group of members. But if you're only interested in revenue, then that's reported to the members in the magazine.

Then, the truly hard things to quantify can be explained such as the lobbying, safety work, etc. ALPA could measure these things and report to members (maybe they already do) and I would imagine that IBT, APA, SWAPA, and others would have a difficult time matching the success.

I disagree that these things can be "measured." You can report to the members on what actions are being taken, but that's already done every month in the magazine and in regular Fast Reads from National that are delivered via email. Quantifying what can be termed a success is a different story, though. Again, some members will determine some things to be a success, while others will deem it a failure. Age 65 is a perfect example of this.

If you can't measure it, you can't manage it. Math is our friend

Eh, math presents a distorted picture in most things. Reality is much more complex than a simple math problem.

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by MusketeerMan

Does this surprise you? You're written off by him if you dare talk down to ALPA or question them about anything...though said person is not a dues paying member of ALPA. (By choice) Go figure.

Not at all...these two are like the neocons of ALPA.

I bet they tape pictures they cut out from "Airline Pilot" magazine on the back of the yoke clips on the planes they fly.

[Orange Anchor]

Originally Posted by Capt. Caucasian

Yup, Thad Jr. (actually the III) was my flight instructor. I got to do quite a bit of flying with Sr. in the Maule as well. What I remember most about him was telling us that "down in Moultrie real Maule pilots land on the ramp, I land on the ramp." Lord, I loved that plane.

I remember "Good", how about "Boss Hog"?

I never met Boss Hogg but worked for Phillip in ATL and CLT. He was one of the last good Chief Pilot. You know Phillip had a heart attack recently and I think had 4 bypasses?

Thad knew the IAM as well as everything else very well. We came into ATL and I was flying. Thad was working the radios. The approach controller asked if we had the ATIS and Thad said, 'Negative." The controller said, "Check back with me when you have it." That was enough to set Thad off citing section and reference that ATIS was NOT required but recommended.

and in Ops, if Thad was flying.. NEVER give me just the basic flight plan and paper work. He wanted it ALL.. all the wx, notams, etc..

We had some true characters at PI. I will send you a PM and you can then forward it to your Dad to tell Thad hello. He is remembered.

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

You see, this is the problem. You think this is easy to measure, but it's actually impossible. What constitutes a "win?" Many people think of a grievance as either "won" or "lost," but it's not that simple. The overwhelming majority of grievances are settled and never reach arbitration. Some of them never even reach System Board. With a grievance settlement, there is give and take, just like negotiations. So how do you determine who "won?" What I would call a "win" would be considered a wash or a even a loss by someone else. Even when a grievance goes all the way to arbitration, there are no clear "winners" in many cases. Remember, grievance arbitrators don't operate under the same principles of "baseball-style arbitration." In other words, they aren't required to pick one side's argument over the other's. They can pick something in the middle, they can go even further than one side argued, they can even issue rulings on parts of the contract that weren't even referenced in the grievance filing or the briefs. It gets very muddy, and picking a clear "winner" is impossible in many cases. Quantifying this isn't workable.



Again, not an accurate way of measuring the work that is done by ALPA Aeromedical, as most of their work doesn't involve reinstating medicals. Most of their work revolves around advice given to members long before their medical is ever in jeopardy. You can't quantify advice, other than to give just the sheer number of phone calls that they've received from members, and that isn't really a worthwhile number to report, as it doesn't give any relevant information.



It even gets muddy on this one, too. Remember, most ALPA pilot groups actually represent a drain on Association resources, not a net increase to the coffers. Revenue increases with the addition of new groups, but expenses exceed revenue for most ALPA pilot groups. For instance, if Colgan had joined ALPA last year, revenue would have started coming in from CJC, but ALPA's expenses to represent CJC would be higher than the revenue that they produce. That means that ALPA's cash position would actually be less today as a result of obtaining this new group of members. But if you're only interested in revenue, then that's reported to the members in the magazine.



I disagree that these things can be "measured." You can report to the members on what actions are being taken, but that's already done every month in the magazine and in regular Fast Reads from National that are delivered via email. Quantifying what can be termed a success is a different story, though. Again, some members will determine some things to be a success, while others will deem it a failure. Age 65 is a perfect example of this.



Eh, math presents a distorted picture in most things. Reality is much more complex than a simple math problem.

Math is ABSOLUTE!

I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate the explainations - I understand better now.

As for math, it can help explain reality. The problem with math is the people that use it. "Liers figure and figures lie" is oftentimes the reality. I think the key with measuring and math is that you completely disclose HOW you are using a number and WHY. If you can support an argument that is gray by using figures and explain how and why you used them it can be enormously helpful. As for grievances described above, you could only show how many were worked on, because the outcome is so murky. As for medical, you can only measure how many you worked on. Measuring both and reporting them...and then being able to tie and expense number to that will help spot trends that develop earlier. I am almost sure ALPA is doing this as any sophisticated organization would.

I just see a lot of arrows that get flung at ALPA and the responses, while impassioned, often devolve into generalities and "because that is just the way it has to be". You are a better defender of ALPA than most. As for the Colgan issue - that makes sense, although I didn't know that it would cost you money. Is this only at first for start-up, or will a small pilot group always be a drain? I can see ALPA saying "CJC is going to cost us money in year one relative to dues, but over five years we will be cash-flow neutral on them"...I would have a hard time understanding "CJC is going to cost us money and will continue to cost us money with no possibility of recouping our services/investment in them.

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

I am almost sure ALPA is doing this as any sophisticated organization would.

I'm pretty sure that all of this is tracked, and it can probably be accessed by the members with a simple request to Herndon. ALPA will even open their entire accounting books to any member if he just makes a request and comes to Herndon.

As for the Colgan issue - that makes sense, although I didn't know that it would cost you money. Is this only at first for start-up, or will a small pilot group always be a drain? I can see ALPA saying "CJC is going to cost us money in year one relative to dues, but over five years we will be cash-flow neutral on them"...I would have a hard time understanding "CJC is going to cost us money and will continue to cost us money with no possibility of recouping our services/investment in them.

Nope, that's a permanent condition. It's actually that way with almost every non-legacy carrier. The legacy pilot groups basically subsidize the rest of the union. Even large regional groups with higher average incomes like Expressjet just barely cover their own expenses. MECs like Pinnacle and ASA are a net loss to the Association, and really small MECs like the new Commutair group are a big cash drain. It's not the normal day-to-day operation expenses that take them into the red, it's the contract negotiations and SPC activities that come along every few years. Waging a contract negotiations fight over 3-5 years takes millions of dollars, even for a small pilot group. The regionals never bring in enough revenue to cover the costs. ALPA is willing to lose money on these pilot groups because they realize that having as many groups under one union umbrella as possible will allow them to raise the entire profession much easier. A rising tide lifts all boats, if you will.

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

Not at all...these two are like the neocons of ALPA.

I bet they tape pictures they cut out from "Airline Pilot" magazine on the back of the yoke clips on the planes they fly.

Hehe you guys got porn in the RJ too?

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by 777forever

Hehe you guys got porn in the RJ too?

We did last night :-)

[Trip7]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

We did last night :-)

Must of been a former ATR guy lol.


BTW some of you guys act like its a crime in this country to make alot of money. Quick to defend the piloting profession when others claim we are overpaid but nevertheless rip everybody else for being overpaid. Here's a thought, stop worrying about other people's salary to improve your own self esteem, get your hustle on, and aspire to be THAT guy making 500k+.

[Cruise]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

Not at all...these two are like the neocons of ALPA.

I bet they tape pictures they cut out from "Airline Pilot" magazine on the back of the yoke clips on the planes they fly.

While you're entitled to YOUR opinion, my opinion is that the above statement is completely uncalled for.

Yes, both PCL and Surreal are ALPA proponents (obviously). So am I! FWIW, I'm very thankful for their contribution to the site. You, on the other hand, don't seem to feel the same way, and that's ok too....but you certainly don't need to resort to insults to illustrate your opinion.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, the information provided by those two is invaluable (whether you like it or not). After all, they contradict the crewroom BS stories about ALPA by providing facts, not conjecture. Perhaps somewhere in between the ALPA rah-rah and the crewroom BS is the real deal.

[Airdale]

Dude...the other day I got some of this cotton candy ice cream from the local ice cream shop. Cotton Candy Ski jump is what it was called. It was bright blue, like a neon kind of blue, with marshmellows and M&M's. The next day when I pooped...it was green. Like as green as the grass green. Weird....

[surreal1221]

[Polar742]

Originally Posted by Orange Anchor

PI was a good place to be.

Did you fly the YS?

[Orange Anchor]

Originally Posted by Polar742

Did you fly the YS?

No but I sure as hell tried to fly it.

You could do everything right and on one landing, you would squeeze the light out from under the tires. Next landing.. "small quake at airport... film at 11". There were more techniques to land that machine than the 727.

Some guys would use a double flare. Pull the power to idle and flare and when the props flattened out, another flare. OR.. just use 60lbs torque until touchdown. OR.. use a push.

Also, the machine would accrete ice like crazy and once it got a load, it would start moanin'... and then you knew what came next. It would begin throwing ice off the props against the fuselage. Sounded like some hell hound trying to invade the fuselage.

And systems.. it had an electrical system with 'wild frequency'. Props had about a bazillion components with high stop and low stop 'lock-outs' and all the valves were 'cocks'. Japanese airplane with British engines and systems as arcane as possible. AND HOT!! Part of the flight kit was a small towel to wipe off the sweat. But it would haul 48 pax in and out of Bluefield and Huntington WV.

Damn.. I will probably have nightmares tonight dreaming I am back in YS-11 ground school.

[Polar742]

I got some time using the fuel trimmers and putting my hand on the pedestal to block the condition levers when you move them to change the LP and HP stop.

I only got a cursory amount of time in one, and a stamp on the paper ticket when we had those.

Kind nice since it only cruised at one speed, you never had to use the manual trim.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by Orange Anchor

But it would haul 48 pax in and out of Bluefield and Huntington WV.

Bluefield sucks. The locals use the VOR for target practice.

The best fireworks I ever saw was when we did the leg BLF-BKW July 4th 2006.