Larry King Live and USAPA

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

No, ALPA wouldn't have done this ad. You have to know the facts behind this. There is a small group of Captains on the East that are going on their own little vendetta against the company by doing all sorts of things to waste fuel. Several have decided to run the APU the entire way across the Atlantic on the A330. Had it been ALPA, the union would have gotten Pro Standards to take these guys aside and school them on how to act like professionals. USAPA, on the other hand, has decided to waste tens of thousands of dollars on a bad publicity campaign to harm the company, just to show them "who's boss."

I hope those fools know that there are hobbs meters on those APU's for times and cylces. The company will find out when the hangar sup and VP of MX have #### fit!

[falconvalley]

Originally Posted by H46Bubba

I hope those fools know that there are hobbs meters on those APU's for times and cylces. The company will find out when the hangar sup and VP of MX have #### fit!

Right! But...they're still going to have to catch the crews that are doing it. Maybe by checking the Hobbs after every flight . I dunno. That stuff just aint right, though if it's really happening. Way to screw yourselves!

[PCL_128]

Hobbs? What is this, a Cessna?

The data can all be downloaded from the FDR complete with date and flight number. That's enough to let them know who it is.

[Minuteman]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Hobbs? What is this, a Cessna?

The data can all be downloaded from the FDR complete with date and flight number. That's enough to let them know who it is.

Any union worth a #### will have an LOA for who is authorized to download an FDR or Quick Access Recorder and for what purposes. Operational critique rarely falls into those boundaries.

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Hobbs? What is this, a Cessna?

The data can all be downloaded from the FDR complete with date and flight number. That's enough to let them know who it is.

Yup! Even your Pinnacle -200's have hobbs meters on them. Of course the FDR is the next step.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Minuteman

Any union worth a #### will have an LOA for who is authorized to download an FDR or Quick Access Recorder and for what purposes. Operational critique rarely falls into those boundaries.

The USAirways contract contains FDR protections, like every ALPA (or former ALPA, in this case) contract, but those protections are rarely absolute. In the case of the AAA contract, the company is allowed to download data from the FDR or CVR, provided that that data isn't used for discipline or to initiate a checkride event. In this case, the company would not be in violation of that language, because training is not discipline, and the pilots weren't being asked to take any sort of checkride, only "training." Some agreements would still prohibit this, but the AAA agreement appears not to.

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by Minuteman

Any union worth a #### will have an LOA for who is authorized to download an FDR or Quick Access Recorder and for what purposes. Operational critique rarely falls into those boundaries.

On the contrary, FDR's are downloaded for info for mx issues and ASAP issues quite a lot. All of our avionics guys are qualified to download FDR's. Basically the USAPA turds are making the IAM mechanics lives harder due to increased inspections, APU mx, and decreased time/cycle limits which requires more APU changes. I mean it's hitting the company where it hurts.. which is it wallet with the mx man hours, materials expeditures and overhaul/repair costs on the APU's.

[Minuteman]

Originally Posted by H46Bubba

On the contrary, FDR's are downloaded for info for mx issues and ASAP issues quite a lot. All of our avionics guys are qualified to download FDR's.

Gotcha, I meant that it should be extremely rare to have someone use the FDR to report back to management about how long the APU was running on a specific sequence of flights.

In my mind, flight ops use of the recorder data should be guarded, especially outside of formal data analysis program.

It's a bummer that life-limited parts could be used to waste money instead of just dumping a thousand pounds over the Atlantic if an issue really had to be made.

[kellwolf]

What if they fill out an ASAP after every flight.

"Due to concerns about fuel and making it across the ocean, coupled with complex departure procedures, I forgot to turn off the APU."

[Airdale]

Its kind of sickening how the media views the Commercial airline industry. There appears to be a huge disconnect between the public and what really goes on in the airlines.

I also find if sickening that pilots would intentionally do things to destroy their employer, especially in this market. US Airways didn't vote out ALPA, the pilot group did.

Who was it that said the US Airways pilots would destroy the company? You may be right...

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

What if they fill out an ASAP after every flight.

"Due to concerns about fuel and making it across the ocean, coupled with complex departure procedures, I forgot to turn off the APU."

You know, only someone who's had to put up with dealing with PCL management could come up with a work-around like that.

Originally Posted by Airdale

Who was it that said the US Airways pilots would destroy the company? You may be right...

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Who was it that said the US Airways pilots would destroy the company? You may be right...

A good number of us are expecting just that.

Just sucks for the few good guys, and all the good guys at the feeders.

[WacoFan]

I agree with PCL's statement earlier in the thread that this is a silly move on USAPA's part - thanks for the info.

I disagree with ALPA's deciding that the general public should be ignored and Wall Street, Management, etc should be the focus. I think that the way for PCL to win this argument is to cite specific positive outcomes of this strategy. Management will never see the ALPA point of view, and Wall Street will also be pro-management because they are the ones that hire the investment banks, etc. Public pressure from the general population who pays for the tickets is not something that should be ignored. I cite the USA Today ad by USAPA - no matter how misguided this may be (and listening to PCL's post, I agree) they DID get time on Larry King and have created a small national discussion regarding a Captain's right to conduct the flight safely. If ALPA could start a national discussion regarding air-safety and its role it would help people understand the dynamics of operating an airplane safely. The perception is that pilots are becoming glorified bus drivers - this needs to change. Excluding the general public does not help ALPA's cause in any way.

[kellwolf]

Problem is, Joe Public doesn't really care as long as he can get from Point A to Point B for as little money as possible. Until planes are falling out of the sky, the general public really isn't gonna care. So, any huge ad campaign geared towards the public is gonna be a waste of funds.

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Problem is, Joe Public doesn't really care as long as he can get from Point A to Point B for as little money as possible. Until planes are falling out of the sky, the general public really isn't gonna care. So, any huge ad campaign geared towards the public is gonna be a waste of funds.

Understand, and appreciate the need not to waste money. That said, the public doesn't care because they haven't been made to care. Air Safety is taken for granted - the wonderful run since the Queens AA crash has lulled the public into a false sense of security about air travel - it is so easy a Caveman could do it. ALPA needs to at least have some kind of mechanism to put their message out to the public. Take a small percentage of funds and dedicate it toward public education and awareness. PCL said Wall Street, Management, etc was the main focus - great...but what is there to show? How are result of these expenditures being measured? I am not challenging, simply questioning - what are the measurables that are being delivered with the current strategy?

ALPA needs to become a "brand". Ideally, the GP would want their planes flown by ALPA organized pilots...because they know that ALPA has done huge amounts toward pilot safety, etc.

[flywithUS]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

A good number of us are expecting just that.

Just sucks for the few good guys, and all the good guys at the feeders.

I take exception to that.

[Cptnchia]

Originally Posted by Minuteman

Gotcha, I meant that it should be extremely rare to have someone use the FDR to report back to management about how long the APU was running on a specific sequence of flights.

In my mind, flight ops use of the recorder data should be guarded, especially outside of formal data analysis program.

It's a bummer that life-limited parts could be used to waste money instead of just dumping a thousand pounds over the Atlantic if an issue really had to be made.

Or they could go the route of SJA and have you enter in the APU Hobbs time on the ACARS summary page, at least for those planes which have one. It's supposed to be entered at TOC, so they get a pretty good idea of what crews are doing.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Problem is, Joe Public doesn't really care as long as he can get from Point A to Point B for as little money as possible. Until planes are falling out of the sky, the general public really isn't gonna care. So, any huge ad campaign geared towards the public is gonna be a waste of funds.

Bingo! ALPA has done focus groups to determine how the public would react to various ad campaigns. Overwhelmingly, the results were that the public would still continue to fly on the airlines that offer them the cheapest price until there were very serious safety concerns. Labor concerns didn't seem to phase them at all, and even minor safety concerns didn't seem to be a problem for most of them. Ticket price is king until the passenger truly believes that his airplane is going to fall out of the sky.

[kellwolf]

Honestly, I think Aeroflot could make a killing over here as long as they charged $70 each way. Who needs reliable MX and safety.....

[N826AW]

I flew up to Utah yesterday and my pilot had a giant sticker on his flight case. I tried to take a picture of it with my camera-phone but it didn't come out.

Big red box with yellow and white print:

"Fellow Pilots:

I am not a member of USAPA."

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by N826AW

I flew up to Utah yesterday and my pilot had a giant sticker on his flight case. I tried to take a picture of it with my camera-phone but it didn't come out.

Big red box with yellow and white print:

"Fellow Pilots:

I am not a member of USAPA."

Ha! Classic. Probably the first time in pilot union history that pilots actually feel the need to defend themselves by proclaiming that they are not a member of the union.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by flywithUS

I take exception to that.

I'm sure you do. . .

[WacoFan]

Hey guys, quick question. How many of the East guys voted to retain ALPA? I believe all of the West guys voted for ALPA, and some of the East, just not sure how many.

[Cptnchia]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

Hey guys, quick question. How many of the East guys voted to retain ALPA? I believe all of the West guys voted for ALPA, and some of the East, just not sure how many.

Not enough apparently.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

Hey guys, quick question. How many of the East guys voted to retain ALPA? I believe all of the West guys voted for ALPA, and some of the East, just not sure how many.

About 300 East pilots voted for ALPA.