GoJet/TSA Single-Carrier Petition

[aloft]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Whether it's mainline or regional pilots, they all hate GoJet pilots.

Is that the kind of career suicide you want?

Exactly the kind of misinformation I'm talking about. Doug has stated before that guys at the mainline carriers could care less about infighting at the regionals, and as I've shown, there isn't even consensus at TSA anymore.

More to the point, the issues everyone seems to have with GoJet are management's doing, not the pilots'--yet another reason to discuss this stuff. Sure, some of the early GoJet pilots may have pissed the TSA guys off by jumping ship, but the majority have never worked for TSA, never done a thing to them, and more importantly to the profession, worked to get a union on property and get a union-negotiated contract that wasn't bottom-feeding. For that, the GoJet pilots should have your respect, not your scorn. You can loathe their management all you want, but even that is somewhat pointless.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by aloft

Not really. As the doc Matt posted spelled out, the two situations bear little resemblance.

Seems to me there is a MAJOR similarity: Freedom was created to get around a scope clause so MAG could fly larger aircraft. Curiously, even the document Matt posted says that was the main reason GoJet was created. So, what was the original deal offered at GoJets? Seeing as they were created in late 2004, started service 10/05 but didn't get Teamster representation until 2/06, I don't see how the current Teamster contract could have been in place during the start up time, which is what most people have an issue with. I've seen all the documents tossed out about the current pay rates and the Teamsters, etc, etc. Just a quick run down of similar carriers on APC, and they're 5 year CA pay isn't that stellar. They're second from the bottom (thanks to Mesa), but you have to keep in mind that both Comair and Mesaba's contract were achieved with the help of bankruptcies. Not exactly fair comparisons. Pinnacle pays less on the -200 side by about $4/hr, and that contract was signed back in 1999.

Sorry, Matt. My free thinking says there's really no reason the two need to be separate unless it's a labor issue thing. We've said hundreds of times that pay rates aren't everything, and I haven't read Go Jet's contract vs TSA's contract. If there's similar work rules in there, then you might have a case. If Go Jet's work rules are less than what TSA has......well, there ya go.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by aloft

Sure, some of the early GoJet pilots may have pissed the TSA guys off by jumping ship, but the majority have never worked for TSA, never done a thing to them, and more importantly to the profession, worked to get a union on property and get a union-negotiated contract that wasn't bottom-feeding. For that, the GoJet pilots should have your respect, not your scorn. You can loathe their management all you want, but even that is somewhat pointless.

I've been trying to find out when the Teamsters inked a new deal with Trans States Holdings. The only thing I was able to find were press releases stating that Go Jets voted them in, nothing about a new contract. And if so....what were the previous terms? That could be a HUGE deal when talking about people jumping ship to Go Jets. Was over a year from the time Go Jets started hiring to when the Teamsters were even voted in. If the pay/work rules were shotty for that time period, I'm afraid that swiss cheeses a lot of your argument.

Edit: Nevermind. Saw you posted the Go Jets contract, and I'm reading it now. Doesn't look like they did much "negotiating," though. It was signed the day Teamsters were selected as the union. Instead of negotiating a new deal, looks like they just signed on for what as already there.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by aloft

I said specifics.

Isn't 50% deadhead pay common? No it is not common, most 75% and a few 100%.

What sucks about their CDO & AR rules, "A CDO trip will not be scheduled for more than six (6) total legs, including deadheads." WTF a CDO should never be more then 2 legs.
"CDO trips will be confined to separate CDO bid lines to the extent
practicable. A Pilot will be scheduled for no more than four (4) day – three
(3) night consecutive CDO’s." CDO's are hard on the body and pilots should be given at least one day between them.
It also looks like a pilot that was on a CDO can get junior maned or extended if needed.
10 hours of AR sucks.
the New Aircraft Type section compared to industry norms? 30 days to work out new rates is not industry norms. "The arbitrator will have no jurisdiction to make the rates of pay specified in his award retroactive."

As for the No Strike/No Lockout section, don't quote me, but I'd be surprised if this was enforceable; seems the provisions of the RLA would trump this. It is enforceable my stupid MEC put in my companys CBA.

As for the Jets For Jobs section, on first glance, spelling out a limit on the ratio seems a good idea to me. Again, the objective of any business is growth. The pilots have no say in the J4J. Great a new FO spots.

Now that I have your homework about the CBA. Will you please pass on your info about way Gojet was started.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Seems to me there is a MAJOR similarity: Freedom was created to get around a scope clause so MAG could fly larger aircraft. Curiously, even the document Matt posted says that was the main reason GoJet was created.

Whose scope clause? The pilots' contract? Or a mainline partner's? I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, that Freedom was merely an attempt at union busting by JO.

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Just a quick run down of similar carriers on APC, and they're 5 year CA pay isn't that stellar. They're second from the bottom (thanks to Mesa), but you have to keep in mind that both Comair and Mesaba's contract were achieved with the help of bankruptcies. Not exactly fair comparisons. Pinnacle pays less on the -200 side by about $4/hr, and that contract was signed back in 1999.

That's fair, but keep in mind that they're a small-potatoes player with only 15 aircraft.

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Sorry, Matt. My free thinking says there's really no reason the two need to be separate unless it's a labor issue thing.

Agreed. And HK tried to go that route, giving the TSA pilots first crack at the flying. As I've posted, Foxcow made it apparent to me that those talks melted down because of the TSA MEC chair's personality clash with HK, and the TSA pilots' failure to recall him before he sank the deal.

The TSA pilots have plenty to be pissed about regarding the GoJet situation, but the GoJet pilot group is not one of them. They should be pissed at HK, they should be pissed at APA for their restrictive scope, but mostly, they should be pissed at their former MEC chair for his inept handling of the 70-seat rate negotiations.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Now that I have your homework about the CBA. Will you please pass on your info about way Gojet was started.

See the doc FlyChicaga posted at the top of this thread. It spells it out pretty clearly.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by aloft
I said specifics.

Isn't 50% deadhead pay common? No it is not common, most 75% and a few 100%. Hmm...none that I'm familiar with.

What sucks about their CDO & AR rules, "A CDO trip will not be scheduled for more than six (6) total legs, including deadheads." WTF a CDO should never be more then 2 legs.
"CDO trips will be confined to separate CDO bid lines to the extent
practicable. A Pilot will be scheduled for no more than four (4) day – three
(3) night consecutive CDO’s." CDO's are hard on the body and pilots should be given at least one day between them.
It also looks like a pilot that was on a CDO can get junior maned or extended if needed. All your opinion, of course; what are the CDO provisions at other companies?
10 hours of AR sucks. Agreed, but again, that's opinion. What are the AR terms at other companies?
the New Aircraft Type section compared to industry norms? 30 days to work out new rates is not industry norms. "The arbitrator will have no jurisdiction to make the rates of pay specified in his award retroactive."

As for the No Strike/No Lockout section, don't quote me, but I'd be surprised if this was enforceable; seems the provisions of the RLA would trump this. It is enforceable my stupid MEC put in my companys CBA. Seems to me that amounts to industry precedent then, but let me get this straight: one of the reasons you hate GoJet is also part of YOUR contract?? By that logic, everybody should hate your pilot group too. (Where did you say you worked again?) Starting to see the lunacy in all the hate-mongering yet?

As for the Jets For Jobs section, on first glance, spelling out a limit on the ratio seems a good idea to me. Again, the objective of any business is growth. The pilots have no say in the J4J. Great a new FO spots. Show me a carrier where the pilots DO have a say in any J4J arrangement.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Edit: Nevermind. Saw you posted the Go Jets contract, and I'm reading it now. Doesn't look like they did much "negotiating," though. It was signed the day Teamsters were selected as the union. Instead of negotiating a new deal, looks like they just signed on for what as already there.

Which undermines the anti-GoJet argument even more, if true.

[Berkut]

Question from a non-121 pilot: Will GoJet always be "bad" because of how they started? Is there any situation where people would consider them redeemed, and okay to work for?

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by aloft

See the doc FlyChicaga posted at the top of this thread. It spells it out pretty clearly.

It does not spell anything out. It looks like we all still have no clue what happen at the negotiation meetings, and have no facts way they where started.

[L-16B]

Originally Posted by aloft

Yeah, right down there bottom-feeding alongside Comair. And really, how many pilots only make guarantee?

As to work rules, you'll need to be more specific.

From APC (with a few other companies tossed in for comparison):

5th yr CRJ 700 CA pay:
GoJet: $66 (goes up to $67 this year, and $71 over the next 4 yrs)
Mesa: $64
Comair: $66
SkyWest: $69 (CR7/CR9)
Eagle: -- no such thing as a 5th yr CR7 CA
Colgan: $60 (Q400 -- 78 seats)

Min Guarantee (lineholder/reserve):
GoJet: 74/74
Mesa: 76/76
Comair: 75/75
SkyWest: 75/75
Eagle: 72/75
Colgan: 75/75

Min Days Off (lineholder/reserve):
GoJet: 11/11
Mesa: 10.83/10.83

Per Diem:
GoJet: $1.50/hr (increases by $0.05 every 2nd yr)
Mesa: $1.28/hr
Comair: $1.55/hr
Eagle: $1.70/hr (increases by $0.05 each year)
Colgan: $1.35/hr

Like I said: not industry-leading, but not bottom-feeding either.

Not defending Colgan in anyway, but - q400 holds 74 seats not 78, and is a tp. apples and oranges (i do think that tp should be paid the same, though). Vote alpa in Aug. Our Per Diem is just downright horrible as well.

[JetsGoWhee]

Originally Posted by aloft

You, on the other hand, keep wanting to make the argument about ME, and one must assume that's because you can't adequately support your own position with facts.

If I remember correctly when this issue popped up a couple months ago, I chimed in gave my piece, told you exactly why GoJets is despised and then you resort to NAME CALLING. Childish. The facts have been presented here so many times it hurts to count them...you just need to open your eyes and maybe see it from 121 pilots perspective before preaching about something you know nothing about.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

It does not spell anything out. It looks like we all still have no clue what happen at the negotiation meetings, and have no facts way they where started.

Re-read it, it states quite clearly that the purpose in creating GoJet was to take on flying that TSA could not do without violating its contract with AMR.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by JetsGoWhee

If I remember correctly when this issue popped up a couple months ago, I chimed in gave my piece, told you exactly why GoJets is despised and then you resort to NAME CALLING. Childish.

Please show me where I resorted to namecalling.

Originally Posted by JetsGoWhee

The facts have been presented here so many times it hurts to count them...

These "facts", as you call them, are in the process of being unraveled one by one.

Originally Posted by JetsGoWhee

...you just need to open your eyes and maybe see it from 121 pilots perspective before preaching about something you know nothing about.

Maybe you need to look at it from a neutral viewpoint to see how ridiculous the "121 pilot" perspective is. The unjustified hatred you advocate is also the basis for racism, sexism and homophobia. Perhaps it is YOU who needs to let it go.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by L-16B

Not defending Colgan in anyway, but - q400 holds 74 seats not 78, and is a tp. apples and oranges (i do think that tp should be paid the same, though). Vote alpa in Aug. Our Per Diem is just downright horrible as well.

Not to mention that you were just purchased for the same purpose everyone alleges GoJet was created for....

The Colgan Q400 rate was thrown in there to illustrate the bottom end of the range for 70+ seats. Passengers aren't charged any less for flying on a turboprop, why should pilots accept less? Some of the G7 hate is coming from guys who clearly need to get their own house in order before throwing rocks at others.

[kellwolf]

Okay, so noticed this was signed in 2007. So, what were the terms pre-Teamsters contract? I'd like to know that stuff since it would shed light on the time frame everyone shuns Go Jets for, namely being inception until Teamsters contract. If their pay and work rules was less than TSA, that would be undercutting.

Just some quick notes while reading Go Jet's contract:

Okay, scope looks like standard stuff
Reserves only get 70 hours of guarantee. Yeah, it's only 5 hours, but that would be a $290 a month pay cut for me.
Not sure if I like tying the line guarantee in with "completion factor." Kinda opens the door to the company not paying everyone "100% of published final bid" if they go below 98% completion factor. (see LoA note below)
JM language is pretty standard
Extension looks like they only start paying you 150% 3 hours AFTER you were originally scheduled to end
Voluntary open time clause is good. Could use that here.
4 hours training pay for full day, 2 hours for a half day is sorta weird. We only get 3.75, but it doesn't matter if we're there 8 hours or 1 hour.
I do like the reserve pay thing where you're guaranteed at least 4 hours (5 for ready reserve).
50% DH needs to go. We've got it in ours (remember signed in 99), and I doubt the new contract will pass with it in there.
We don't have dual qualifications here, but I don't like what they've got. If you're CA qualified and fly as an FO, you should be getting paid CA rates. Period, end of story. Not an average of the two.
Per diem rates are less than what our FAs got on their new contract. For a deal signed in 2007, probably shoulda been able to get more than $1.50
Day rooms are for ground sits of 6 hours and double occupancy. Current contract here is 5 hours.
Hotel portion has loopholes you can drive a truck through. Basically gives the company leeway to pick whatever they want. They can say they "considered" safety, but savings might have been more important. Basically, it's almost carbon copy of our hotel language.
Days off are pretty standard, 10 for reserve, 11 for line holders min
Scheduled duty is the same as it is here (14 hours), but they can take you all the way to 16. Here, we have to give consent to go over 15.5
Getting bought off for OE at Go Jets at least doesn't put you on de-facto reserve like it does here, but I think that's a crappy thing we have that a only a few (if any) other carriers have. So, we'll call that one pretty standard.
Oooh, don't like this. A line holder that has been removed from a trip but not re-assigned immediately can be put on reserve. That's bad.
Commuter policy is about the same as here
I don't know why they have Guaranteed Days Off (GDO). They have to be awarded as days off in the bid period, and they get 6 per year. Seems like it's basically a tool to keep from getting JMed. Don't know about you, but this seems like an empty thing to have in a contract and makes me wonder what they gave up to get it. I just don't answer the phone on my day off....
Reserve periods for up to 14 hours
"A reserve shall not begin a reserve period without an actual rest period of at least 8 hours" Yeah, b/c it would more than likely violate FARs dealing with Whitlow Rest.....
Reserve call-out is the same as here
According to the contract, reserves have to call CS at the end of an assignment. That's a little unnecessary. If we don't get a call FROM CS and no messages on CrewTrac when we check out, we're gone.
They can hold you for 2 hours past block in for a potential assignment as a reserve. They can do that to us, but only for 1 hour, and the trip has to start within 3 hours of block in.
Ready reserve for 10 hours, but they get per diem.
New aircraft type is the same as ours, so if they get 'em, expect aribtration on the pay rates.
Seniority starts from start of ground school. Same here.
If you're on probation, you can't file a grievance on disciplinary action. Bad.
Vacation pay is 3.25 hours a day. Ours is 3.75, but I think Go Jets gets more days per year
Vactions must be taken in 1 week increments. We can do "vacation at a time," but it's hardly ever approved that way.
If you upgrade, you have to re-bid vacation. That's a pain.
Company can cancel vacations, but if you paid that deposit on the trip to Atlantis, they'll reimburse you....if you kept the receipt. Not sure if you can swap vacation weeks with other pilots like can here.
Sick leave accrual is the same as here, but like here, the company can ask for a doctor's note for anything
2 week furlough notice. Not sure, but I think most are 30 days.
Gotta pay a nickle per page for a copy of your personal file. We get a free copy once a year.
Not good. There are some conditions the company can use CVR and FDR data for disciplanry action. Unless there's an LOA for FOQA/ASAP, this opens a can of worms
Moving expenses in the case of involuntary displacement is a little less than what we have here. In addition to what Go Jets gets, we also get a paid "house hunting" trip with the spouse.
We also get "moving days" when bidding from one domicile to another. I don't see anything in their contract for that.
They'll give you an advance to pay for your flight bag and suitcase, and you can pay it back in $25 increments.
They pay for the initial hat insignia and wings. You pay for everything else.
$25 a month up to a total of $300 in a "uniform bank." We get cash on the second pay check of the month instead.
OMFG! Their insurance premiums are out of control. $314/mo for family. Ours is roughly half of that. Most of the other health benefits we get here are a LOT better than theirs as well.
401K match of 100% of 1% of pilots earnings. Not so hot. Possibly better than ours depending on how long you've been here. For the first five years, we get 25% match up to 5% of pay.
There's a clause that says the Company isn't liable for misapplication of the contract. Uh....why?
There's a no strike clause. YGTBSM. Sorry, but damn. According to this, if pilots voted to authorize a strike....they can be fired.
Jets for Jobs LoA. IMO, this is selling out your own people to get business.
If the two really are separate.....why is there an LoA for transferring planes to TSA?
Same question.....why is there an LoA for 55 seat or less planes for GoJets?
Oh, glad they revised the completion factor tying into pay. Now, they've clarified. Company gets a completion factor of less than 98%.....only 95% of your line guarantee. So, make sure those planes fly!


Conclusion: It's more standard than I thought, but it could be improved in a lot of ways. For a 2007 contract, I think it falls short of where it should be. Also, it doesn't put to rest the issue of "Was Go Jets a whipsaw?" You can't look at a 2007 contract and say "They weren't undercutting TSA" when that happened in 2005. Now, if the terms in the contract were there in 2005, I'd say they were pretty much even. But if they were, that negates the "Teamsters fought for a good contract" argument.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by aloft

Re-read it, it states quite clearly that the purpose in creating GoJet was to take on flying that TSA could not do without violating its contract with AMR.

Republic did it without having to start a new airline.

Originally Posted by aloft

Hmm...none that I'm familiar with. XJT, ASA and I think SKW all have 100% DH pay.

All your opinion, of course; what are the CDO provisions at other companies? At my company not more 2 takeoffs during CDO's, the company can't mix in CDO's with non-CDO's, and we get no less the 3 days off after a CDO.

Agreed, but again, that's opinion. What are the AR terms at other companies? Most are 8 hours.

Seems to me that amounts to industry precedent then, but let me get this straight: one of the reasons you hate GoJet is also part of YOUR contract?? By that logic, everybody should hate your pilot group too. (Where did you say you worked again?) Starting to see the lunacy in all the hate-mongering yet? Two companys doesn't make it a precedent. Yes there are things in my contract I do not think are good for me or the industry but in whole is good out weights the bad.

Show me a carrier where the pilots DO have a say in any J4J arrangement. PSA/PDT.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by aloft

Not to mention that you were just purchased for the same purpose everyone alleges GoJet was created for....

Major difference there. The pilots at Colgan that were there during the purchase didn't choose that route. The ones that chose to go to Go Jets in 2005 actively made the decision. What were Go Jet's terms pre-Teamsters? Until I see those, none of the Teamsters stuff really matters. If the Teamsters brought the bar up, good on 'em. However, if the current bar at Go Jets was brought UP, then that just underlines the fact that it was a sub-TSA operation and no wonder they told HK to take a hike.

[JetsGoWhee]

Originally Posted by aloft

Please show me where I resorted to namecalling.

Ok sure. Here. The moderator had to erase it. Thanks for being cordial and professional.


I'm done responding to your drivel.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Republic did it without having to start a new airline.

Yep.

Originally Posted by kellwolf

What were Go Jet's terms pre-Teamsters? Until I see those, none of the Teamsters stuff really matters. If the Teamsters brought the bar up, good on 'em. However, if the current bar at Go Jets was brought UP, then that just underlines the fact that it was a sub-TSA operation and no wonder they told HK to take a hike.

Also let us point out that the IBT 747 local that represents ALL other airline pilots under the teamster umbrella, refused and is refusing to represent the GOJET pilots. I believe the GOJET pilots are represented with a local Teamster affiliate in STL.

[TheAlchemist]

Originally Posted by aloft

Like I said, the anti-GoJet sentiment isn't even consensus among TSA pilots anymore.

Really? How do you know that? You have zero experience with the company all you know is from the forums or PM's. You shouldn't talk about something you have no clue.

Funny, but not very clever. I didn't think you could articulate an understanding of the situation, and you didn't disappoint

Just because I'm not gonna waste my time trying to explain to you what *I* think of the situation doesn't give you the right to insult my intelligence. And it wasn't suppose to be funny.

Answer this: Why haven't you applied with Gojets yet? You say you are tired of flying a C172 around and ready for something with 2 engines. Well make you move man! You will do just fine. At DWAS you were known as the company's tattle tale. I could never agree with the pilots who thought that because I didn't have to spend time with you.

Bottom line is Gojet is perfect for you! No kidding!

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

A question for the TSA guys... has it happened yet?

It... have they offered any soon-to-be-furloughed TSA guys interviews at GoJet?

No. And the guys I've talked to when asked if they would go there mostly just laugh or start making jokes about it.

[L-16B]

Originally Posted by aloft

Not to mention that you were just purchased for the same purpose everyone alleges GoJet was created for....

The Colgan Q400 rate was thrown in there to illustrate the bottom end of the range for 70+ seats. Passengers aren't charged any less for flying on a turboprop, why should pilots accept less? Some of the G7 hate is coming from guys who clearly need to get their own house in order before throwing rocks at others.

I'm not even touching this one. Two totally seperate things, nothing alike. I'm glad that your an expert with Go jets, but your expertise ran out when you comment on Colgan/Pinnacle.

Like I said in my original post, I DO NOT AGREE WITH TP'S GETTING PAID LESS. And I'm not throwing hate on anyone, I never commented on anything about G7 at all, so I'm curious as to what rocks I threw?

[L-16B]

Originally Posted by Seggy

Yep.





Also let us point out that the IBT 747 local that represents ALL other airline pilots under the teamster umbrella, refused and is refusing to represent the GOJET pilots. I believe the GOJET pilots are represented with a local Teamster affiliate in STL.

That's interesting, I never knew that. Speaking of IBT 747, when you get to the EWR crew room someone has been sticking their stickers around everywhere, but still no talk of ALPA at all.