Pinnacle says Delta intends to terminate contract!

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Steve,

Don't worry man. My issues are not with Pinnacle. My issue is with using data that ranks us against ALL companies instead of ranking us against our fellow DCI carriers when discussing the issues of which of us are worse performing within the Delta system.

Here's what I think. They should look at what performance each of us negotiated and agreed to in the individual carriage contracts.....and nothing else. It's fine to use the performance numbers when the contract is up to re-negotiate or decide if it should be renewed then. But I can't sign a deal with a lawn care company, see the guy across the street is getting better service and terminate the deal based on that. I'd be slapped with breach of contract and lose in roughly 1.8 seconds. Part of the problem we have here is everything is so cloak and dagger. We don't know what our performance goals are, so we as employees (and stakeholders in the company) don't know where we stand. Is the on-time arrival goal 67% for the month or 70%? Should I actually TRY to get there on time by burning extra gas or try to save money by flying the profile? If the company was more forthcoming on issues like this, we'd be better informed as employees and know what we need to do to keep our jobs and positions. Unfortunately, upper management deems this "need to know" info, the people that DO know about it have signed a confidentiality agreement and we get vague things like "We hit our target number for the month." The sad thing is I don't know if we have a leg to stand on. I can find out what our on-time performance was for each individual month (along with if the delays were air carrier induced, ATC or weather), but I have no idea what the goals were in the contract. If I trusted management a bit more, I might not care as much. Our management, however, likes to keep us in the dark or spread misinformation, which, of course, breeds mistrust. My livelihood is in the hands of a group of people I don't trust, and that scares me.

You mention your management's decision to accept the ASA. Well, word on the other side of the street is that the decision to accept it was a flawed one to begin with. Doesn't make things any better, and certainly the employees should not be placed on the block or blamed for the issues of not meeting the performance criteria that was unattainable in the first place.

Luckily, the employees aren't getting the blame for this one.....yet. With our performance numbers over the past year (and the stellar ones we're putting up now) along with our cost structure, it shouldn't be a problem for our management to find homes for those 16 jets. The albatross for the company is the lack of a pilot contract. With a 99% strike vote, any carrier that we bid on an RFP for is gonna have that in the back of their minds. With oil where it is now, no one can really afford a 1 day strike, much less a week or two.

Personally, I think ASA between major airlines and their regional partners should be public knowledge. I don't see how they aren't with publicly traded companies like Pinnacle. How do we know our management didn't sign a crappy deal? I'd like to know how effective my management team is at negotiating contracts that benefit BOTH sides rather than just signing any deal that comes along. I'm sure the shareholders (especially since our stock is hovering near a 52 week low and fallen $15 a share in a year) would like to know that as well.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by gtpilot

This was actually on purpose because of the contract negotiations.

I know you are sort of kidding, but be careful saying stuff like that. Unions have been tossed in jail for doing a lot less.

[H46Bubba]

Don't forget the other hidden performance factors...which woud be where each carrier has its operations and how many flights are operated by said carriers. If your operating out of ATL with 9 aircraft and scheduled for so many flights you should have really good numbers, versus another carrier who is operating 160 aircraft out of three or four different hubs.
Like Polar said, each flight that is cancelled or is delayed gets coded for the cause of the delay or cancellation. There's meetings and teleconferences all day long and some which include the parent carrier. If Delta cancels our flights for weather or to further their ops we get phone calls and its also via message. The cancellation is coded that it was a Delta cancellation, plus we have the messages filed in case of discrepencies. We still get paid for the canceled flight. Cancellations and delays are kept track of very closely.

[Soul Brotha']

Originally Posted by H46Bubba

Don't forget the other hidden performance factors...which woud be where each carrier has its operations and how many flights are operated by said carriers. If your operating out of ATL with 9 aircraft and scheduled for so many flights you should have really good numbers, versus another carrier who is operating 160 aircraft out of three or four different hubs.
Like Polar said, each flight that is cancelled or is delayed gets coded for the cause of the delay or cancellation. There's meetings and teleconferences all day long and some which include the parent carrier. If Delta cancels our flights for weather or to further their ops we get phone calls and its also via message. The cancellation is coded that it was a Delta cancellation, plus we have the messages filed in case of discrepencies. We still get paid for the canceled flight. Cancellations and delays are kept track of very closely.

Exactly what my main man said.

Our numbers at OH are not that impressive due to our operation at JFK. The delays we get are 98% not our fault. ATC and DL ramp control are a big factor for us. As also for mainline. Anyone arriving between 1500-1800 hours good luck. DL has too many flights and not enough gate space at JFK.

[surreal1221]

Steve,

Dude, I feel for you guys. Always have, especially with this contract negotiating that is dragging on and on and on and on, etc. Now, to hear that you guys don't have any idea of what your performance goals are for a month is really just beyond me.

You guys are the frontline for your company and start the engines, and shut them down. On time, or delayed.

You guys should know more than anyone what your performance goals need to be for the month.

I don't know about the other DCI carriers, but we at ASA know very well what our goals are - almost on a weekly basis.

Good luck man

[Bama]

I thought this was about PCL not ASA. And let's try to keep company business within the company.. k? thanks

[surreal1221]

I'll agree with that. Just know some of the three letter combination of ASA in this thread is not in regards to the airline ASA.

[Bama]

Well aware

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by Soul Brotha'

Exactly what my main man said.

Our numbers at OH are not that impressive due to our operation at JFK. The delays we get are 98% not our fault. ATC and DL ramp control are a big factor for us. As also for mainline. Anyone arriving between 1500-1800 hours good luck. DL has too many flights and not enough gate space at JFK.

The breakdown I saw of our stuff on the DOT site had less than 10% of our delays as "Air carrier delays." Most of them were ATC delays. I'm starting to think that management here signed an unrealistic deal, and we're all gonna pay the price for their incompetence.

[meyers9163]

So first Mesa, now Pinnacle.... So as much as we tend to put others down who's next? ASA/Comair/SKW/RAH/Xjet? (did I miss any) Just sickens ya to see such. I know they are using the meeting the contract as the way of getting out but give me a break. Just this should be a big eye opening event to all of us that anyones job can be gone tomorrow. This in a way just seems to be DAL's way of trying to cut their domestic routes and thus them not giving two S&&ts about anyone they will plow under while doing so.

Regardless perhaps I'm way off but this just makes ya wonder whats next for DAL? Now I know there's a lot of dislike out there for Mesa/Pinnacle but the fact of the matter is anyone could be next, or am I missing something?

[SmitteyB]

Originally Posted by Bama

I thought this was about PCL not ASA. And let's try to keep company business within the company.. k? thanks

Relax bro. You're a publically traded company.

[imasaluki]

Look at the airlines left, the equipment they utilize, the markets they serve, the quality of contract they have with Delta, Delta's possible "excess" capapcity, and come to your own conclusions. You might also look at the profitability of the routes they serve, aka Florida = not very profitable. If there are more cuts to come, these are points Delta will certainly consider. I'm sure Delta doesn't enjoy paying for fuel on routes/equipment they deem unnecessary or unprofitable in the current market.

Originally Posted by meyers9163

So first Mesa, now Pinnacle.... So as much as we tend to put others down who's next? ASA/Comair/SKW/RAH/Xjet? (did I miss any) Just sickens ya to see such. I know they are using the meeting the contract as the way of getting out but give me a break. Just this should be a big eye opening event to all of us that anyones job can be gone tomorrow. This in a way just seems to be DAL's way of trying to cut their domestic routes and thus them not giving two S&&ts about anyone they will plow under while doing so.

Regardless perhaps I'm way off but this just makes ya wonder whats next for DAL? Now I know there's a lot of dislike out there for Mesa/Pinnacle but the fact of the matter is anyone could be next, or am I missing something?

[kellwolf]

And now there's another kink in the chain. From CNBC this morning:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=768944643

Go to about the 3 minute mark, and Anderson talks about the Delta-Pinnacle issue. Two things. First off, look where he's being broadcast from. Memphis, TN. Second, he doesn't say the issue is closed. His words are something like "we're going to stay in negotiations with Pinnacle." Something's up, and I got no clue what it is. It's either gonna be really good or really bad for the pilots, at least that's what my gut tells me.

[777forever]

Originally Posted by H46Bubba

I'll have to wait till this weeks bulletin comes out on Friday. I'll give an update as to who will take over the ATL lines you guys were flying. They're not going to let the routes drop unless it's a back door way to cut domestic service due to high fule prices. We'll just have to wait and see.

From Deltanet:

We have notified Pinnacle Airlines of our election to terminate its Delta Connection contract effective July 31 because of performance. We expect the operational pull down to be orderly and have minimal impact to our customers.
“Our customers rely on Delta and Delta Connection carriers for outstanding service, and we will continue to insist on that level of performance from our business partners,” said Don Bornhorst, s.v.p.-Delta Connection. “Pinnacle’s operational performance has fallen below minimum levels required under the contract. Today, it’s more important than ever that Delta and its Delta Connection partners meet operational and customer service levels.”
We have an agreement with Pinnacle to operate 16 CRJ-900 aircraft, nine of which are in service. We’ll choose another connection carrier to operate the former Pinnacle routes.
Pinnacle has operated as a Delta Connection carrier since December 2007.

[sorrygottarunway]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Here's what I think. They should look at what performance each of us negotiated and agreed to in the individual carriage contracts.....and nothing else. It's fine to use the performance numbers when the contract is up to re-negotiate or decide if it should be renewed then. But I can't sign a deal with a lawn care company, see the guy across the street is getting better service and terminate the deal based on that. I'd be slapped with breach of contract and lose in roughly 1.8 seconds. Part of the problem we have here is everything is so cloak and dagger. We don't know what our performance goals are, so we as employees (and stakeholders in the company) don't know where we stand. Is the on-time arrival goal 67% for the month or 70%? Should I actually TRY to get there on time by burning extra gas or try to save money by flying the profile? If the company was more forthcoming on issues like this, we'd be better informed as employees and know what we need to do to keep our jobs and positions. Unfortunately, upper management deems this "need to know" info, the people that DO know about it have signed a confidentiality agreement and we get vague things like "We hit our target number for the month." The sad thing is I don't know if we have a leg to stand on. I can find out what our on-time performance was for each individual month (along with if the delays were air carrier induced, ATC or weather), but I have no idea what the goals were in the contract. If I trusted management a bit more, I might not care as much. Our management, however, likes to keep us in the dark or spread misinformation, which, of course, breeds mistrust. My livelihood is in the hands of a group of people I don't trust, and that scares me.



Luckily, the employees aren't getting the blame for this one.....yet. With our performance numbers over the past year (and the stellar ones we're putting up now) along with our cost structure, it shouldn't be a problem for our management to find homes for those 16 jets. The albatross for the company is the lack of a pilot contract. With a 99% strike vote, any carrier that we bid on an RFP for is gonna have that in the back of their minds. With oil where it is now, no one can really afford a 1 day strike, much less a week or two.

Personally, I think ASA between major airlines and their regional partners should be public knowledge. I don't see how they aren't with publicly traded companies like Pinnacle. How do we know our management didn't sign a crappy deal? I'd like to know how effective my management team is at negotiating contracts that benefit BOTH sides rather than just signing any deal that comes along. I'm sure the shareholders (especially since our stock is hovering near a 52 week low and fallen $15 a share in a year) would like to know that as well.

I'm with you there... I don't quite understand how they get these performance numbers, because I certainly don't believe that they're the fault of flight crews or the company actually operating the flight... Almost all regionals I know of have separate companies operating the ground activity as well as the gate activity at certain airports. Much like enzymes in a biological process, its all dependent on the slowest of those factors- who's gonna hold us up today? Are they just basing these numbers on cancellations? Late departures (usually not the flight crew/company's fault, but the stations)?

[Soul Brotha']

Originally Posted by sorrygottarunway

I'm with you there... I don't quite understand how they get these performance numbers, because I certainly don't believe that they're the fault of flight crews or the company actually operating the flight... Almost all regionals I know of have separate companies operating the ground activity as well as the gate activity at certain airports. Much like enzymes in a biological process, its all dependent on the slowest of those factors- who's gonna hold us up today? Are they just basing these numbers on cancellations? Late departures (usually not the flight crew/company's fault, but the stations)?

You are right. I really don't know where the numbers come from too. If you look at our JFK numbers, we should have been cut a while ago. But like I was telling Kellwolf, we have no control over 98% of the delays. We can't be on time if ATC delays us or if DL ramp has no space for us upon arrival. The classic was a couple days ago when we were heading to YUL and the rampers lost the passengers bags. It was an hour delay. I really don't know what the numbers are like for PNCL in ATL, but Freedom got the shaft for the JFK ops.

[kellwolf]

If we lose Delta, all I gotta say is we need to find SOME way of ditching Mesaba in MSP and DTW. We're probably gonna have to compete with them directly to keep routes under the new Delta, and having your direct competitor running ALL of your ground ops in two of your three hubs? Not good.

[SmoothLanderJ]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

If we lose Delta, all I gotta say is we need to find SOME way of ditching Mesaba in MSP and DTW. We're probably gonna have to compete with them directly to keep routes under the new Delta, and having your direct competitor running ALL of your ground ops in two of your three hubs? Not good.

Man its soooooo funny that you say that. Im in on reserve in DTW for the month of June. So, last week I was trying to jumpseat to Nashville to visit my dad for a few days on Pinnacle. The flight was full so I was able to sit up front in the jumpseat, everything is good at that point. Next thing you know the crew gets a message....the folks on the ground lost 40 bags that were supposed to be on the flight and as a result the plane ended up being nose heavy. Becuase of that, myself and 3 pax had to get off. That SUCKED! (Luckily I got on a SWA flight an hour later ) So, yeah I see where you're coming from. Ive also noticed several Pinnacle flights leaving late from DTW as well, not sure what the cause was though.......

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by SmoothLanderJ

Man its soooooo funny that you say that. Im in on reserve in DTW for the month of June. So, last week I was trying to jumpseat to Nashville to visit my dad for a few days on Pinnacle. The flight was full so I was able to sit up front in the jumpseat, everything is good at that point. Next thing you know the crew gets a message....the folks on the ground lost 40 bags that were supposed to be on the flight and as a result the plane ended up being nose heavy. Becuase of that, myself and 3 pax had to get off. That SUCKED! (Luckily I got on a SWA flight an hour later ) So, yeah I see where you're coming from. Ive also noticed several Pinnacle flights leaving late from DTW as well, not sure what the cause was though.......

40 Bags! Holy crap! I understand losing a few; but 40? That's probably almost all the bags from just about every passenger on the plane! Great job to whatever genious did that!

[SmoothLanderJ]

Originally Posted by H46Bubba

40 Bags! Holy crap! I understand losing a few; but 40? That's probably almost all the bags from just about every passenger on the plane! Great job to whatever genious did that!

Seriously, 40 bags no lie. Im not sure when or if they turned up....

[kellwolf]

Oh, we pushed back in DTW one night, and I noticed as we were pushing back that the gate check bags WERE STILL IN THE JETBRIDGE! Mentioned something to the tug driver, whose response was "Uh....Oops. Well, um, do you want to go back?" So, we said yeah, we haven't started #1 yet. Pull us back in and load the bags.

[Kingairer]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

And now there's another kink in the chain. From CNBC this morning:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=768944643

Go to about the 3 minute mark, and Anderson talks about the Delta-Pinnacle issue. Two things. First off, look where he's being broadcast from. Memphis, TN. Second, he doesn't say the issue is closed. His words are something like "we're going to stay in negotiations with Pinnacle." Something's up, and I got no clue what it is. It's either gonna be really good or really bad for the pilots, at least that's what my gut tells me.

Something really good for the pilots??? A true optomist.

[blee256]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

And now there's another kink in the chain. From CNBC this morning:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=768944643

Go to about the 3 minute mark, and Anderson talks about the Delta-Pinnacle issue. Two things. First off, look where he's being broadcast from. Memphis, TN. Second, he doesn't say the issue is closed. His words are something like "we're going to stay in negotiations with Pinnacle." Something's up, and I got no clue what it is. It's either gonna be really good or really bad for the pilots, at least that's what my gut tells me.

my guess is it will be somewhere along the lines of SIGN THIS "INDUSTRY AVERAGE" CONTRACT OR WE'RE DONE!!

[Kingairer]

Theyre already at or below industry avg....so theyve already done that.

[777forever]

Originally Posted by Kingairer

Theyre already at or below industry avg....so theyve already done that.

Thats exactly what I was thinking. I don't think Pinnacle did anything wrong. I guessing this is another backdoor attempt to shed regional carriers. They want to reduce it to 4 and the aren't playing around.

So that leaves Comair, Skywest, ASA, Shuttle America, and Chicken Taco. One more to go?