Take your pick Colgan!

[kellwolf]

So, interesting bit of bad news on this side..

Seems the arbitrator on the scope issue changed his mind and now says that Pinnacle Holdings DIDN'T do anything wrong. Currently, ALPA is saying "WTFO?" and has requested that he clarify what, why and how he suddenly decided to reverse his previous decision. This is from a blastmail from the Pinnacle MEC.

Essentially, if the scope clauses doesn't get upheld, there's really nothing to stop Pinnacle Holdings from suddenly granting Colgan ALL new flying and waiting while Pinnacle shrinks into nothingness. Heck, there's really nothing to stop them from moving all of our flying over to Colgan anyway. I think the NWA/Delta contracts are with Pinnacle HOLDINGS, which means Colgan could fly them as well.

[L-16B]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

So, interesting bit of bad news on this side..

Seems the arbitrator on the scope issue changed his mind and now says that Pinnacle Holdings DIDN'T do anything wrong. Currently, ALPA is saying "WTFO?" and has requested that he clarify what, why and how he suddenly decided to reverse his previous decision. This is from a blastmail from the Pinnacle MEC.

Essentially, if the scope clauses doesn't get upheld, there's really nothing to stop Pinnacle Holdings from suddenly granting Colgan ALL new flying and waiting while Pinnacle shrinks into nothingness. Heck, there's really nothing to stop them from moving all of our flying over to Colgan anyway. I think the NWA/Delta contracts are with Pinnacle HOLDINGS, which means Colgan could fly them as well.

I want nothing but good things for Pinnacle, I have a bunch of friends over there. I would never ever ever fly anything but a turboprop for Colgan Air. I fully plan on helping out with the Alpa movement after talking to Seggy today. When you talk about granting Colgan new flying, are you talking about on rj's or just flying with nwa in general?

[OldTownPilot]

From the outside looking in, Couldn't it turn into a major conflict of interest having 2 unions representing pilots for the same company?

Lots of union fighting back and forth rather than union cooperation. Especially if this scope grievance is overturned.

I.e. TSA (ALPA) vs. GoJet (teamsters, albeit not local 747)

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by L-16B

I want nothing but good things for Pinnacle, I have a bunch of friends over there. I would never ever ever fly anything but a turboprop for Colgan Air. I fully plan on helping out with the Alpa movement after talking to Seggy today. When you talk about granting Colgan new flying, are you talking about on rj's or just flying with nwa in general?

Legally, they could technically grant ANY flying, including what we're already doing at Pinnacle. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the services agreement is with Pinnacle HOLDINGS, not Pinnacle AIRLINES. As for just flying turboprops.....the Q400 might as well be a jet. That thing carries more passengers, thus generating more revenue than the CRJ-200 I fly. Translation: you guys should be getting paid more than you are to fly that thing.


Back to something I missed earlier....

Originally Posted by jtrain

-"If we get ALPA, then it'll be a conflict of interest because Pinnacle is ALPA, so we should vote Teamsters."

WHAAAA! I'm glad I know you as well as I do, b/c I know you probably smacked them upside the head for that one. Technically, Comair and Delta are a conflict of interest. So are Mesaba and Pinnacle. That makes no sense. You negotiate the contract for your own pilots, not to undercut the other guy.

-"If we vote ALPA, we'll have a substandard contract because it won't be as good as Pinnacles, so we should vote Teamsters."

It'll only be substandard if you vote "yes" on a substandard contract. It'll also only be substandard if your OWN pilots on your OWN negotiating committee let it. ALPA National doesn't negotiate contracts, that's done at the local level. There's no reason to think that just b/c you've got a smaller pilot group, new kids, whatever that your contract is gonna be worse than XYZ airlines.

Looks like we've got a lot of educating to do, and the Teamster guys have a jumpstart on the mis-information drive.....

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

From the outside looking in, Couldn't it turn into a major conflict of interest having 2 unions representing pilots for the same company?

Yeah.....one could wind up suing the other. Just ask US Air.

[Cruise]

Ugh, I can't believe this. Well, obviously the new ALPA drive is that much more important....if that's even possible.

[ANG135drvr]

I think most all of the Q guys at Colgan are missinformed or somehow convinced that the Teamsters are the way to go. Seggy, you need to hurry up and get your @ss into EWR so you can talk some people straight and distribute that Union knowledge. Personally I just don't get having a Trucking Union representing Pilots when there is already a Pilot Specific group out there? I'll be happy to have anything over what we have now, but it be a lot nicer if we went for the right one on the first try.

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

It'll only be substandard if you vote "yes" on a substandard contract. It'll also only be substandard if your OWN pilots on your OWN negotiating committee let it. ALPA National doesn't negotiate contracts, that's done at the local level. There's no reason to think that just b/c you've got a smaller pilot group, new kids, whatever that your contract is gonna be worse than XYZ airlines.

IF they do end up merging the list... it would be illegal to have 2 seperate contracts for one labor group, so technincaly a second year FO at colgan would take a pay cut.. but whatever that just means you've be adding 220 ish pilots to the list that would not accept the current contract ina a vote.

The Q guys are afraid that in a merger, Pinnacle pilots would displace them, and they probably don't really trust alpa right now... so u know what distrust and fear breeds... teamsters.

Honestly, I wish the 2 sides would stay represenative to their own sides. I would also like to see the 9E pilots get a new contract, as well as 9L guys in a mannar that each side was rewared for the profits of the Q... The Q flying wouldn't have happened if either party wasn't involved

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by TUCKnTRUCK

IF they do end up merging the list... it would be illegal to have 2 seperate contracts for one labor group, so technincaly a second year FO at colgan would take a pay cut.. but whatever that just means you've be adding 220 ish pilots to the list that would not accept the current contract ina a vote.

That would be true until the new contract gets inked. Then the second year FOs would probably see a bigger pay jump. Although, now we're seeing that a list merger might not happen....

The Q guys are afraid that in a merger, Pinnacle pilots would displace them, and they probably don't really trust alpa right now... so u know what distrust and fear breeds... teamsters.

AFAIK, what we're looking for in a merger is some sort of seniority list integration with fences up. Which means it's a VERY good probability no one would get displaced. At least not for several years.

Honestly, I wish the 2 sides would stay represenative to their own sides. I would also like to see the 9E pilots get a new contract, as well as 9L guys in a mannar that each side was rewared for the profits of the Q... The Q flying wouldn't have happened if either party wasn't involved

The problem with having them separate is that it gives management a nice little tool to play both sides off of each other. That's my major fear, mainly because I trust this management team about as far as I can toss a 747 with my pinky finger and b/c I know they wouldn't lose an ounce of sleep over it.

[mjb00123]

Originally Posted by ANG135drvr

I think most all of the Q guys at Colgan are missinformed or somehow convinced that the Teamsters are the way to go. Seggy, you need to hurry up and get your @ss into EWR so you can talk some people straight and distribute that Union knowledge. Personally I just don't get having a Trucking Union representing Pilots when there is already a Pilot Specific group out there? I'll be happy to have anything over what we have now, but it be a lot nicer if we went for the right one on the first try.

ANG135drvr I see your point. But what do you say about what Teamsters did for Netjets and Horizon. I don't know about you but those are pretty good contracts.

Also for Seggy! Since you seem to be the go to guy for ALPA and get your *** to EWR and tell me and many others what the real deal is. Because right now Teamsters have alot of the Captains minds made up.

[mjb00123]

Hey Ang135drvr hows MIL Leave LOL!

[surreal1221]

Pilots, wanting to take part in a truckers union. We're really raising the standards now aren't we?

Oy yi yi. . .

[Polar742]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Pilots, wanting to take part in a truckers union. We're really raising the standards now aren't we?

Oy yi yi. . .

While I'm not a huge fan of the IBT, as I was a member for about 9 yrs, they have had some contractual accomplishments.

1) The FIRST parent binder scope ever, which occured at RAH.
2) ABX contract - which unfortunately seems to be tanked by DHL's recent "decision"
3) Horzion's contract. Rates about 10% higher than CMR, when CMR had a heralded contract. Again, I don't know what the rates are when they're an all Dash fleet
4) NJA contract
5) World Airways

Of course all of these were accomplished by each individual pilot group, as there is very little support from the International. ALPA beats them hands down with support functions.

I just want to point out that being a teamster is FAR better than non-union shop.

After being a member of both unions, I'd say ALPA is far better, but the IBT will be as strong as the airline's members want it to be.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by mjb00123

ANG135drvr I see your point. But what do you say about what Teamsters did for Netjets and Horizon. I don't know about you but those are pretty good contracts.

Also for Seggy! Since you seem to be the go to guy for ALPA and get your *** to EWR and tell me and many others what the real deal is. Because right now Teamsters have alot of the Captains minds made up.

First NJA are in a decertification drive for the teamsters. A lot of NetJet Pilots are not happy with the teamsters and there is a good possibility that they are going to have their own union.

http://www.ainonline.com/ain-and-ain...he=1&tx_ttnews[story_pointer]=5

Besides the pay rates, tell me why Horizon has a great contract compared to ExpressJet, Pinnacle, Mesaba, or PSA. A contract has a lot more to do than straight pay rates.

Mike, take a look at the comments from guys at Teamster representated airlines on here. What are they saying?

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Here are some interesting numbers. This was taken from another board, by a one time poster of this very forum.

Quote:
Very true. The NMB and NLRB receive, investigate, and track all allegations of "unfair labor practices" that are alleged by members. The stats of ULPs filed between 2000 and 2006 (the most recent numbers available):

ALPA - 4 allegations
IBT - 6,413 allegations, plus 1,243 decertification elections

That's 1 complaint for every 16,500 ALPA members, or 1 complaint for every 218 Teamster members.

What a total load of propaganda!!!!
I'm not siding with either horse in this race, but lets expand on these "facts" a little, shall we.

ALPA has 40 Locals, the IBT has 500
ALPA has 55,000 members, the IBT has 1.4 MILLION !

To give an accurate comparison, you would have to provide "pilot" allegations for the IBT and ALPA. You cannot include the dockworkers, truck drivers and factory workers allegations.

If ALPA showed up for a card drive at NJA they would be chased out of town with pitchforks.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by Seggy

First NJA are in a decertification drive for the teamsters. A lot of NetJet Pilots are not happy with the teamsters and there is a good possibility that they are going to have their own union.

Minor correction.

NetJets is in the process of decertifying the Teamsters to preserve dues money for use by the Local. They do not feel we are getting our bang for the buck, for the amount of dues we are sending to DC. We are in the process of having the only decert in history to not involved the NMB. IBT officials have been involved in the process and it is/will be, an amicable split.

[ANG135drvr]

Mike, I hate to say it, but just because the ill informed Capitains say Teamsters, doesn't make it right. Remember these are the guys that were here before and failed to vote in ANY union. The same people who believed that Colgan wouldn't change and was still a good old Family run company. No offense, but I'm with Seggy on the union thing. I was listening the other day to a few Captains complaining about giving %3 of their check to ALPA, I'm thinking " Who TF cares?" %3 of nothing is nothing as far as I'm concerned with my paycheck. It's sad to think but I actually believe some people are using the .5% or 1.5% difference as a soapbox for not going ALPA. If all these nickel pinchers could live at one time on 1st year FO pay at Colgan, I'm pretty sure they can spring for what I consider Job Insurance.

I think this whole deal is gonna be what we make of it, but I haven't ever spoken to an ALPA or Teamster who has not said, "Go ALPA" Right now this whole union thing at Colgan is like where the Republicans are in the presidential race. No one is really excited about McCain, but if he's what everyone else is pushing, guess I'll vote for him.

O, and Mil leave is keeping me sane. This month is good though so I'm actually working for Colgan.

Rant End

[falconvalley]

Where would you rather get your furniture from? Would you rather get it from a low-price, superstore or would you rather get it from a store that specializes in furniture?

[mjb00123]

Ok so forget all of this back and forth BS! Can somebody tell me when ALPA reps will be at EWR to give out the facts.

[L-16B]

Originally Posted by mjb00123

Ok so forget all of this back and forth BS! Can somebody tell me when ALPA reps will be at EWR to give out the facts.

Seggy a lot of guys think that ALPA can't even organize before the 1 year anniversary of Aug 31st, and then it would be another few months before the vote. Some think that we are eligible to vote on Aug 31st and they can organize before. Do you know what the deal is?

[Seggy]

Here is the deal.

From what I understand some people have been talking to ALPA for a few months.

Unlike the teamsters who are not organized, ALPA has a process that takes a few months to initiate such as getting mailing lists, addresses, lining up support from other ALPA carriers, etc.

If ALPA feels that there is enough support for another drive then a card collecting campaign will start. By signing the card, it authorizes the National Mediation Board to conduct a vote. The NMB needs at least a 35% of the total number of pilots on the seniority to sign a card for a vote. The NMB certifies it as a LEGAL bargaining union for the pilots.

Just a warning. If there are two unions holding a drive. The company can actually go to the NMB and say the recognize the Teamsters or ALPA. If this happens it is IMPERATIVE that we still sign the cards for a vote. If this happens the company will go for what they feel the weaker union is (like they did with the flight attendants) and the company can go back and kick the union off property at will at any time.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by ANG135drvr

I was listening the other day to a few Captains complaining about giving %3 of their check to ALPA, I'm thinking " Who TF cares?" %3 of nothing is nothing as far as I'm concerned with my paycheck. It's sad to think but I actually believe some people are using the .5% or 1.5% difference as a soapbox for not going ALPA. If all these nickel pinchers could live at one time on 1st year FO pay at Colgan, I'm pretty sure they can spring for what I consider Job Insurance.

You can correct them it is 1.96% of your salary goes to the union. All tax deductable as well, so it is really free in the long run with our wages.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by mjb00123

Because right now Teamsters have alot of the Captains minds made up.

See below...

Originally Posted by ANG135drvr

Mike, I hate to say it, but just because the ill informed Capitains say Teamsters, doesn't make it right. Remember these are the guys that were here before and failed to vote in ANY union. The same people who believed that Colgan wouldn't change and was still a good old Family run company.

Mike and all other Colgan guys out there...the only thing I ask is that you have an open mind about ALPA vs. teamsters.

Just because somebody says something, no matter if they are a senior captain or junior first officers, does not mean they are right or wrong. Take a look at the facts that are presented, how they present themselves, THEN decide what is the best choice for us as a pilot group.


It is imperative that we all have an open mind about the choice we are going to make. Get the facts and make your own individual choice about the direction you want to take our pilot group.

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by H46Bubba

Listen to Seggy! If you don't; he'll personally show up at your door and moon you! It's not pretty! Just ask Dale!

now drinking heavily . . .

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Bumblebee

now drinking heavily . . .

But you're at work, man!