GoJet Incident

[BajtheJino]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

So what you're trying to say, in a lot of words, is that...

-You haven't done your research
-You want somebody else to do it for you
-You are making statements that are untrue, and when somebody corrects you, you whine?

Good.

Don't really need to do research.
No. Just asked a question.
Not whining. It's just that I can do without the sarcasm and insolent tone from you that drips from most of your posts.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

The thing with GoJets is that they were a whipsaw from day one.

I haven't seen a shred of evidence to support your assertion. Please provide details as to how and when G7 was whipsawed against TSA.

[Doug Taylor]

Aloft, for the love of David Hasselhoff, I'm afraid you're getting in over your head on the subject.

Check out the "Hot Topics" section, or start a new thread on why GoJets is deleterious to the pilot profession.

Final warning. I've already had a cocktail so consider request for reprieve denied in advance.

[fly8slep]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

GoJets was created to force the TSA pilot group to either fly bigger airplanes for less money, or if they wouldn't do that, to sidestep their union and hire people to fly bigger airplanes for less money under the same holding certificate. That's normally called union busting, and illegal. They were able to get it past a judge somehow.

No actually Gojet was created because AA wouldn't allow TSA to fly 70 seaters, it's a different certificate and airline. It wasn't to force pilots to fly for lower wages. They offered TSA guys to fly for GJ. Anyways it doesn't matter now, the fact is GJ is union they have 70 seat pay, they just got a new contract earlier this year while TSA is still operating under the old contract. So it's kind of ironic that people are saying GJ undermined and lowered industry standards, if there are any.

I'm relatively new to TSA but so far I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that there is serious hatred toward GJ pilots like I have heard prior to joining TSA. We have them in and out of our airplanes all the time and vice versa, I talk to them in STL/ORD and they seem happy.

[Foxcow]

Originally Posted by fly8slep

No actually Gojet was created because AA wouldn't allow TSA to fly 70 seaters, it's a different certificate and airline. It wasn't to force pilots to fly for lower wages. They offered TSA guys to fly for GJ. Anyways it doesn't matter now, the fact is GJ is union they have 70 seat pay, they just got a new contract earlier this year while TSA is still operating under the old contract. So it's kind of ironic that people are saying GJ undermined and lowered industry standards, if there are any.

I'm relatively new to TSA but so far I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that there is serious hatred toward GJ pilots like I have heard prior to joining TSA. We have them in and out of our airplanes all the time and vice versa, I talk to them in STL/ORD and they seem happy.

The reason we rejected the flying is because they wanted us to do it for less than we were flying the 145 for. The LOA was ridiculous. There is controversy because of the people that went over there in hopes of getting ahead in seniority and a fast upgrade. To this day, they achieved neither. Just remember, the company hired people over there at TSA's expense (we furloughed 60 people. TSA financed that whole operation and mostly likely continues to do so to this day judging from their size and performance.

This is not meant to be mean but once you have been on property a little longer, you will start to understand the management/labor relationship and realize why we are still working under our expired contract. There are a lot of factors at work.

Also, the only reason we have them in and out of airplane is because we aren't allowed to deny them. In the beginning, we were denying them but they would tattle to the holding company and we would get in trouble. They cannot deny us either since we are part of the same happy family/company.

[joliet]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Why can we not allowed our emotions to be exposed?

These are serious issues that must be address and discussed, unfortunately these issues are not going to be discussed in a civilized maner because of the overall negative economic standing that it puts people and their families.

Let's be real about it instead of trying to tell people to pipe down and calm down. We should be angry, pissed off, and ready to fight for what we believe in.

/agree

[ljg]

A lot of urine and vinegar so far (3 pages worth) for a stupid sticker. Sanjay is an unprofessional; what else does there really need to be said about it? I agree from the uneducated freight side it looks stupid.

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Why can we not allowed our emotions to be exposed?

These are serious issues that must be address and discussed, unfortunately these issues are not going to be discussed in a civilized maner because of the overall negative economic standing that it puts people and their families.

Let's be real about it instead of trying to tell people to pipe down and calm down. We should be angry, pissed off, and ready to fight for what we believe in.

The reason we can't allow our emotions to be exposed is the same reason when you were a CFI you said "right rudder, right rudder" and not "WTF ARE YOU DOING YOU IDIOT...THIS IS THE 700TH TIME I'VE TOLD YOU THIS...WHY DON'T YOU JUST GET IT!?!?!"

[pipepatrol]

Are you sure "Sanjay" was his real name??? That sounds kind of made up, if you ask me.

I know a lot of times when I'm in a sticky situation, I'll make up a name on the fly just so they wont be able to track me down...

[TheAlchemist]

Originally Posted by pipepatrol

Are you sure "Sanjay" was his real name??? That sounds kind of made up, if you ask me.

I know a lot of times when I'm in a sticky situation, I'll make up a name on the fly just so they wont be able to track me down...

Yup Sanjay is his REAL name. His well known around here.

Originally Posted by fly8slep

No actually Gojet was created because AA wouldn't allow TSA to fly 70 seaters, it's a different certificate and airline. It wasn't to force pilots to fly for lower wages. They offered TSA guys to fly for GJ. Anyways it doesn't matter now, the fact is GJ is union they have 70 seat pay, they just got a new contract earlier this year while TSA is still operating under the old contract. So it's kind of ironic that people are saying GJ undermined and lowered industry standards, if there are any.

I'm relatively new to TSA but so far I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that there is serious hatred toward GJ pilots like I have heard prior to joining TSA. We have them in and out of our airplanes all the time and vice versa, I talk to them in STL/ORD and they seem happy.

Did you actually believe what training depto (SW) told you?

[blee256]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

If it's any consolation(to the tsa guys) Gojet pilots aren't allowed in the xj jumpseats. I believe it has more to do with the lack of a reciprical js agreement.

I dont think Pinnacle has one either. But i'ld have to check on that.

Originally Posted by fly8slep

We have them in and out of our airplanes all the time and vice versa, I talk to them in STL/ORD and they seem happy.

Wow times have changed, i had a friend who used to work there when GJ first came about. He wouldnt dh or js on them because he didnt want to catch crap from other TSA pilots if they saw him get off one of their planes.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by fly8slep

No actually Gojet was created because AA wouldn't allow TSA to fly 70 seaters, it's a different certificate and airline. It wasn't to force pilots to fly for lower wages. They offered TSA guys to fly for GJ. Anyways it doesn't matter now, the fact is GJ is union they have 70 seat pay, they just got a new contract earlier this year while TSA is still operating under the old contract. So it's kind of ironic that people are saying GJ undermined and lowered industry standards, if there are any.

Originally Posted by TheAlchemist

Did you actually believe what training depto (SW) told you?

Seems to me that TSA's training dept is more likely to have accurate info as to management's intent than the TSA pilot group....

[Cruise]

Originally Posted by aloft

Seems to me that TSA's training dept is more likely to have accurate info as to management's intent than the TSA pilot group....

Guess that's an 'outside the industry' perspective. Obviously, since you're not at an airline, you'd be surprised at the ridiculous rumors spread while in training. Many of which are developed by the 'trainers' that supposedly have management's ear. Not so surprising, these rumors seldom come to fruition.

[joliet]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

The reason we can't allow our emotions to be exposed is the same reason when you were a CFI you said "right rudder, right rudder" and not "WTF ARE YOU DOING YOU IDIOT...THIS IS THE 700TH TIME I'VE TOLD YOU THIS...WHY DON'T YOU JUST GET IT!?!?!"

people who require being told for the "700th" time don't belong in aviation

[aloft]

Originally Posted by Cruise

Guess that's an 'outside the industry' perspective. Obviously, since you're not at an airline, you'd be surprised at the ridiculous rumors spread while in training. Many of which are developed by the 'trainers' that supposedly have management's ear. Not so surprising, these rumors seldom come to fruition.

And rumors spread by the pilot group are so much more reliable and free of bias...

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by aloft

And rumors spread by the pilot group are so much more reliable and free of bias...

In the three years I've been flying 121 I'd say about 50% of the rumors I've heard came out of either Maintenance ("we've got -900 engines on order!") or Training ("we've got EFB training manuals printed and ready to hand out!"). The other 50% come from web forums.

Training guys might be good instructors (or not sometimes) but as far as company information, unless they are truly plugged in, as a few are, generally don't know crap about stuff like that.

But of course, you wouldn't believe that because I'm not a training department guy so I don't have credible information.

[TheAlchemist]

Originally Posted by aloft

Seems to me that TSA's training dept is more likely to have accurate info as to management's intent than the TSA pilot group....

Intent? Of what buddy? Do you know what I'm talking about exactly? Were you in class with Trans States? Do you know SW?

And FYI it was only this ONE instructor (SW) who said what you say is "accurate info as to management's intent". Every other instructor agrees 110% with the pilot group.

I'm glad I could help you get your first flying job man...too bad I won't be able to help you with GoJet. I got a notice of furlough today, but I hear G7 is hiring so why don't you apply? I feel the love...Aloft & GoJet

Sorry but I'm not in a good mood today.

[aloft]

So why would info from the pilot group be any better? Seeing how chummy ya'll are with Hulas, you know exactly what goes through his mind....not!

That said, the bottom line is pretty obvious: getting around the pilot contract may have been a reason GoJet was created, but it wasn't THE reason; THE reason was the AMR contract and its 50-seat scope language. Said scope language is also THE reason TSA is furloughing; 50-seat jets just aren't that popular right now with the mainline carriers.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by aloft

That said, the bottom line is pretty obvious: getting around the pilot contract may have been a reason GoJet was created, but it wasn't THE reason; THE reason was the AMR contract and its 50-seat scope language. Said scope language is also THE reason TSA is furloughing; 50-seat jets just aren't that popular right now with the mainline carriers.

Getting around the AMR scope is easy. You really don't know what you are talking about.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by TheAlchemist

And FYI it was only this ONE instructor (SW) who said what you say is "accurate info as to management's intent". Every other instructor agrees 110% with the pilot group.

Which is proof of exactly nothing. Sorry man.

Originally Posted by TheAlchemist

I'm glad I could help you get your first flying job man...too bad I won't be able to help you with GoJet. I got a notice of furlough today, but I hear G7 is hiring so why don't you apply? I feel the love...Aloft & GoJet

Sorry but I'm not in a good mood today.

Look, I'm sorry you're getting furloughed, but that's no reason to get personal with me.

FWIW, I'm not some GoJet fanboy or anything; my intent is to stem the spread of mis- (and dis-)information here. It doesn't matter to me who the company is, JCers deserve "fair and balanced", and as it pertains to GoJet, I don't believe we're getting that. Like many of you, I started coming to this site because it was a source of reliable info. People should be able to take to the bank the info they get here, and with just a little research, I've found the "common knowledge" regarding GoJet to be pretty seriously flawed. It's more innuendo and spin than fact.

You're free to disagree, I don't really care. But attacking me personally because you don't like what I'm saying is beyond juvenile.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by Seggy

Getting around the AMR scope is easy. You really don't know what you are talking about.

Clearly, neither do you, so we'll just call this one a draw.

Still waiting for the Colgan/Pinnacle whipsaw....

[TheAlchemist]

Never mind...

"Fair and balance" man? What is it Fox news?

[JetsGoWhee]

Originally Posted by aloft

You're free to disagree, I don't really care. But attacking me personally because you don't like what I'm saying is beyond juvenile.

W-O-W. I had to read that one a couple times...you are DEFINITELY not one to talk about being juvenile.

[aloft]

What makes you say that? Because I disagree with something you believe strongly?

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by aloft

Clearly, neither do you, so we'll just call this one a draw.

Like I said, getting around the AMR scope is easy. Look at Republic Airways holdings. Guess what they have?

Yep, the holding company is flying for AMR, they have ONE seniority list under different operating certificates that let's them work around the restrictions of their mainline partner scope (by the way all this flying should be done by mainline pilots, but I digress). So it is not hard.

I am not going to comment about my company and get into an argument with someone who I lost a lot of respect for.