Ignorant FO friends

[meyers9163]

So I just have to rant a minute. I had this buddy who when we were going through training together wanted to FLY a jet, just could not wait. Oh man TSA was the place he wanted to go and it was just amazing. I was telling him at the time he could set his goals highers a RAH or SKW and do great. Anyways he went and instructed and due to some cirumstances and contacts from Delta State he got hired at RAH at 500 hours. Great for him. Now this guy should be smart. He has a BS in aviation management and airport mgt as well.

We were talking this afternoon and I was asking him how things were going. He's like oh great ya know. I'm safe and have 400 under me and things are amazing. I simply asked how do you figure you are safe? Oh man we fly for 5 carriers, we have a 14 year CBA with CAL and 2015 with DAL etc. It just amazed me that this man who I wish nothing but the best really thinks at a regional he is safe from all. Has no clue about scope or anything of that nature etc. The guy is very intelligent, but to me it comes off as ignorance at times, perhaps I'm wrong though? How can one feel so safe. Am I worried, no not really; but would I go around saying I'm safe and I cant be touched? I just dont get it. Xjet was doing great everyone wanted to go there. Now we see possibly 700 gone at a large company. And this man just ignores the industry he's in.

I dont know. Perhaps he's just the classic ATP mentality (that's where I met him) and did not realize how things can change so fast. It just really shocked me. He's really THE only friend I have at a regional I would say is doing well still that has this attitude and for some reason it really got to me today. Just thought I'd rant real fast. But it amazed me how he left the conversatoin. Basically saying with the xjet going down some, and MESA future and now our company asking for LOA's why would he worry about anything. If anything they'd get more flying.... just left me speechless.....

Oh and lastly, he also said, "we have BB he wont fail us." I agree as I've mentioned he goes to my church. But do we as pilots really trust our futures with our mgt?

[ljg]

Look, not trying to flame, but BB bolted Mesaba and left them in a really tough spot for awhile. I'm not saying he's a deserves to live in a sewer, but think about it.

In general, how much can somebody care about the longevity of a company when they've cashed in millions upon millions of dollars while the entry level employees of a company live just above the poverty line? If I honestly asked myself the same question, I wouldn't care as much about the success of a company as a new flight attendant or fresh FO might.

Your friend is not in an immune spot. BKB is.

[v1valarob]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Perhaps he's just the classic ATP mentality (that's where I met him) and did not realize how things can change so fast.

Wow you really are bitter towards ATP. This type of mentality is not a "classic ATP" thing, its just the attitude of someone who just wants to fly shiny jets and doesnt care about anything else. Its comes from all types of training environments.

-Rob

[deadstick]

This reminds me of one of the "preferential hiring" group parties that was put on by a carrier after Skyway announced it was closing up. There were 6 of us in the room. After watching the hair gel/techno rock video about how great the company was, we had a Q/A session.

The question was asked about how this carrier, with a whole lot of 50 seat RJ's and rising fuel prices, planned to face the future. The rep quoted the various contracts that it had and that "The company has several contingency plans for a downturn in the industry, a Plan A, Plan B, and Plan C. The company will be ok." The follow-up to that was "We understand the company will be ok, Midwest and Skyway are still going to be in business, but what about the employees?"

There response was a shrug. The moral of this story is that, in the end, the company will always lookout for the company.

meyers, for one reason or another, some people do not understand or accept what others are telling them. They just have to experience the consequences for themselves. Kinda like trying to teach a maneuver. Imagine a student who kept doing it "his way." Once the student is looking up at the ground, they might believe you know a thing or two about flying.

Don't sweat it. I don't think it's not something to destroy a friendship over.

[blee256]

I think your friend is typical of any new hire FO at his first airline. They get fed the company propoganda and think they are employed by the greatest regional out there. Or soon will be the greatest. I don't think its a big deal. he'll come down pretty soon off his high.

I don't get why it bothers you so much.

[joliet]

Originally Posted by v1valarob

Wow you really are bitter towards ATP. This type of mentality is not a "classic ATP" thing, its just the attitude of someone who just wants to fly shiny jets and doesnt care about anything else. Its comes from all types of training environments.

-Rob

I doubt that, you just don't see it because you still have it 8-) Too many punks at ATPs.

It totally is a "Classic ATPs" thing.

Originally Posted by blee256

I think your friend is typical of any new hire FO at his first airline. They get fed the company propoganda and think they are employed by the greatest regional out there. Or soon will be the greatest. I don't think its a big deal. he'll come down pretty soon off his high.

I don't get why it bothers you so much.

When he does, he will probably come crashing down. Losing 17 jets worth of flying doesn't seem to phase him. Wait till US Airways goes to court, and says, "in order to make this merger work, we need to scrap all our E170 flying with Republic, as we have our own 190s."

[kellwolf]

He's got 400 people under him, so he feels safe? Yeah, ask that guy at Mesa how safe he feels when the 400 people behind him just got the letters. Yeah, he could be going from 401 from the bottom to last guy on reserve pretty quickly. I'm sure Mesa had long term contracts, too. Thing is, there's probably loopholes in those contracts.

We've got 10 year contracts with NorthDelta here, but I don't feel 100% safe. I've seen the target performance numbers, and I feel comfortable we won't F it up that badly (at least on the NWA side), but I don't feel all hunky dory. When you start getting complacent is when reality has a tendency to bite you in the ass and wake you up.

[akrand]

I used to hear this too by some new hire FO's when I was a FA. I remember a lot of the pilots would joke that every pilot will get furloughed at least once in their career. I'd love to live in a dream world and think that my husband will never get furloughed again since he was furloughed 3 years ago. But, sadly, I live in the reality of this industry. Before his airline started to furlough, my husband had about 600+ pilots below him....but that didn't keep him safe. In the end, not even the #1 pilot was safe b/c 1.5 years after they became a LCC, the airline went under and everyone lost their job. I will never feel like his job/pay is safe.

I think your friend will come to realize there is no such thing as being "safe" in this industry. You never know what tomorrow will bring.

[BajtheJino]

Maybe your buddy is trying to keep a positive attitude about the here and now. Too many people running around screaming about tomorrow and what could happen. I'd say get off the guys back and focus more on your life and ways to improve it and let him deal with what may or may not happen at his company.

[MusketeerMan]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

Maybe your buddy is trying to keep a positive attitude about the here and now. Too many people running around screaming about tomorrow and what could happen. I'd say get off the guys back and focus more on your life and ways to improve it and let him deal with what may or may not happen at his company.

Good post. I pretty much worry about doing my job, keeping it and making sure my family is taken care of. This industry is way too unstable to get bent out of shape over someone else's thought processes or feelings on their company. Do I feel good about my company? I actually do, but I'm certainly not unrealistic in knowing that it could all change tomorrow.

To each his own...

[surreal1221]

Real quick:

A million schools, will teach you how to fly an airplane.

But none of them, teach you about trade unionism, labor relations with management, or how the real inner workings of the airline industry can ultimately put you out on the street.

It's not good marketing to do such.

Furthermore, it troubles me that there are those out there who act this way - and who hold a higher seniority number than myself.

But hey - whatever. . .the ignorant and naive ones are just who management wants driving the planes around.

[SteveC]

Time out while I clean up this mess.


edit to add:

Back in business.

[Lee D]

He probably just needs a little more experience.

I second those that say it takes time to understand the fickle nature of this industry and the fact that nothing is truly set in stone. First year F/O are, for the most part, still in a honeymoon phase. Its not that after time you start to hate your job, rather you see things in a more realistic light. Age and real life job experience has something to do with it too. A few years under your belt in any professional industry and you begin to understand that you are never totally immune from layoffs, furloughs, buyouts and shutdowns.

[BajtheJino]

Originally Posted by Lee D

He probably just needs a little more experience.

What, before he starts posting on message boards about all the bad things about his job? Not singling you out but this type of response is sickening. Maybe dude is tired of every body he knows only wanting to talk about one thing-Doom and Gloom! Maybe the guy is happy his paychecks deposit to his account, that he gets to do the job he wanted and actually enjoys it. Maybe he'll deal with what happens when it actually happens. For most of the F.O.'s out there it's like a broken record on this board and others. They bust their asses to get the job they've always wanted and then jump on the latest craze which is to try to change their pay (which they agreed to by taking employment) and working rules (which they agreed to by taking employment). If experience is all that you need to have a negative opinion about your job and the future count me out of working with people like that.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

What, before he starts posting on message boards about all the bad things about his job? Not singling you out but this type of response is sickening. Maybe dude is tired of every body he knows only wanting to talk about one thing-Doom and Gloom! Maybe the guy is happy his paychecks deposit to his account, that he gets to do the job he wanted and actually enjoys it. Maybe he'll deal with what happens when it actually happens. For most of the F.O.'s out there it's like a broken record on this board and others. They bust their asses to get the job they've always wanted and then jump on the latest craze which is to try to change their pay (which they agreed to by taking employment) and working rules (which they agreed to by taking employment). If experience is all that you need to have a negative opinion about your job and the future count me out of working with people like that.

You realize that by complaining about these people being negative, you're complaining and being negative just the same yourself, right?

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Lee D

He probably just needs a little more experience.

I second those that say it takes time to understand the fickle nature of this industry and the fact that nothing is truly set in stone. First year F/O are, for the most part, still in a honeymoon phase. Its not that after time you start to hate your job, rather you see things in a more realistic light. Age and real life job experience has something to do with it too. A few years under your belt in any professional industry and you begin to understand that you are never totally immune from layoffs, furloughs, buyouts and shutdowns.

Glad someone has said it.

It is unfortunate that a majority of my fellow newbie crew members lack any real life professional work experience. In that regard, I must say that I'm very happy to be in the minority in that regard.

I've tried my best to open up the eyes of the many *starry-eyed* ones that I've come across, as it usually helps to hear the truths about the profession from someone your own age instead of some old grumpy RJ-700 Captain who is about to retire all pissed off at the world.

But nevertheless, we can't save everyone. The best I can attempt to do is avoid them.

[Lee D]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

What, before he starts posting on message boards about all the bad things about his job? Not singling you out but this type of response is sickening. Maybe dude is tired of every body he knows only wanting to talk about one thing-Doom and Gloom! Maybe the guy is happy his paychecks deposit to his account, that he gets to do the job he wanted and actually enjoys it. Maybe he'll deal with what happens when it actually happens. For most of the F.O.'s out there it's like a broken record on this board and others. They bust their asses to get the job they've always wanted and then jump on the latest craze which is to try to change their pay (which they agreed to by taking employment) and working rules (which they agreed to by taking employment). If experience is all that you need to have a negative opinion about your job and the future count me out of working with people like that.

Hmmmm. I think my post might have been taken somewhat out of context. I suspect we are on the same team here.

I don't think I have ever posted anything with a doom and gloom tone, or for that matter displayed such an attitude in the flightdeck. (Nor do I enjoy flying with anyone who has a crappy attitude.) My comments were not geared to say that with experience all new f/o's should become jaded, onery and hell to work with. I said that after some time/experience you don't come to hate your job, rather you realize that none of us are immune to the troubles and issues of this industry. You like what you do, you don't want to quit flying and find a "real" job, but you also come to understand that it can be a rollercoater ride.