RAH E190s (Payrate)

[Monty]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

This is the mentality that's gonna sink us. If RAH were flying 737 or 757 why SHOULDN'T they go for a mainline-esque payrate? It's a mainline aircraft, and pilots flying it should be paid appropriately. Should FOs at RAH get $23/hr to fly a 737 just b/c they're not mainline? Start down this road, and pretty soon we'll all be wondering where the good jobs went.....

Precisely. If they want you to fly a mainline airplane...they had best be prepared to pay mainline pay rates. Why do you think everyone hated Skybus so much??

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Monty

Precisely. If they want you to fly a mainline airplane...they had best be prepared to pay mainline pay rates. Why do you think everyone hated Skybus so much??

Ding!

I think people have to realize that position that were previously seen as 'stepping stones' to something bigger or better can easily become a career position depending on the economy.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by 777forever

I believe there's no way in hell a regional will get a 190. The mainline pilots would be smokin to relax the scope even more.

Never say never Marcus, more especially in this business.

Not too long ago, exactly what you had stated was said for flying anything over 50 seats.

And, here we are today with 70-86 seaters at the feeders.

[deadstick]

Why single RAH and the 190 out? There are many "regionals" flying the CRJ-900 around. If those folks demanded the same pay as DC-9 pilots, then they might not be the cheap alternative for mainline management when, like today, they are trying to save every penny.

Per APC:
Yr #1/#2/#3/#4 pay
$30/58/70/72 for a NWA FO
$22/29/32/34 for a Mesa FO (900)

Imagine a set of 4 pilots at these companies, one at each of these pay levels, all make a 70 hr (or whatever) guarantee...
The total Mesa pays the four in base salary is $98,280, where as NWA pays its 4 pilots $193,200. Can you guess which group I eventually want to join?

If mainline mgt sees that they can get hired guns to carry their pax in larger (900/190), aircraft and save on labor then that is a no brainer. This example is $100k for only 4 pilots! What can 1000 fewer mainline pilots save the company?

If you want to ever get out of the regionals and on with a major/legacy, your choice NOT to fly the 900/190 is protecting YOUR future. It mights suck for a few more years, but it will pay dividends (literally!) in the end.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by deadstick

Why single RAH and the 190 out? There are many "regionals" flying the CRJ-900 around. If those folks demanded the same pay as DC-9 pilots, then they might not be the cheap alternative for mainline management when, like today, they are trying to save every penny.

The E190 if anything would be comparable to the CRJ1000, are you seeing any CRJ1000's flying around?

Originally Posted by deadstick

If you want to ever get out of the regionals and on with a major/legacy, your choice NOT to fly the 900/190 is protecting YOUR future. It mights suck for a few more years, but it will pay dividends (literally!) in the end.

EXACTLY! Glad you would agree. However if we are throwing into this equation CRJ900 we need to include the E170/E175 in which RAH flies. As well as the 900's every other regional already flying them has as well. However we have too many egar beavers out there willing to fly these planes and seeing nothing wrong with it. They believe a rate like Jetblue at a regional is acceptable. Yet not realizing that by accepting even a rate similar to jetblue would be forcing mainline pilots to lose jobs.

I for one really could care less if RAH flies E135/E145/CRJ200/CRJ700.... However we are talking large regional jets.... Its getting out of control. It time we stop under cutting, stop saying our CEO is saying this, stop saying its not a matter of if but when. YOu are at a company and you can make a stand. Stand the heck up and quit placing your tail between your legs.....

However this is a conversation that will go on for a while I have a feeling. ITs a topic we need all those in a CRJ900/E170/E175 to see..... We need those pilots to realize by flying those planes they are taking jobs away. Ultimately if those planes went to mainline more jobs would be needed. Better work rules and qol would occur. However until we have pilots in this regional world saying "bring on the E190's and lets fly them for airways for jetblue rates" we are continuing to undercut our futures at mainline. We are outsourcing labor, accepting taking jobs away from our possible future employeers etc. The fact of the matter is until those who are flying these planes come to the realization we will not go any where. Thus the discussion. Perhaps even if one guy at RAH/Mesa comes to the side of this is hurting the industry it can help start something. Yeah wishful thinking maybe but its an arguement/discussion we must have.

As many know I get pretty heated with this topic. But the reason is mostly because those at a particular few regionals do not seem to realize what its doing to the industry. Yet those same regionals flying these types of equipment are in a hurry for Mesa to fold and take over some of their flying..... Its just out of control to put it simple. I dunno... Perhaps its a loss cause with the attitude of some already portrayed on this forum?

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

The E190 if anything would be comparable to the CRJ1000, are you seeing any CRJ1000's flying around?





EXACTLY! Glad you would agree. However if we are throwing into this equation CRJ900 we need to include the E170/E175 in which RAH flies. As well as the 900's every other regional already flying them has as well. However we have too many egar beavers out there willing to fly these planes and seeing nothing wrong with it. They believe a rate like Jetblue at a regional is acceptable. Yet not realizing that by accepting even a rate similar to jetblue would be forcing mainline pilots to lose jobs.

I for one really could care less if RAH flies E135/E145/CRJ200/CRJ700.... However we are talking large regional jets.... Its getting out of control. It time we stop under cutting, stop saying our CEO is saying this, stop saying its not a matter of if but when. YOu are at a company and you can make a stand. Stand the heck up and quit placing your tail between your legs.....

However this is a conversation that will go on for a while I have a feeling. ITs a topic we need all those in a CRJ900/E170/E175 to see..... We need those pilots to realize by flying those planes they are taking jobs away. Ultimately if those planes went to mainline more jobs would be needed. Better work rules and qol would occur. However until we have pilots in this regional world saying "bring on the E190's and lets fly them for airways for jetblue rates" we are continuing to undercut our futures at mainline. We are outsourcing labor, accepting taking jobs away from our possible future employeers etc. The fact of the matter is until those who are flying these planes come to the realization we will not go any where. Thus the discussion. Perhaps even if one guy at RAH/Mesa comes to the side of this is hurting the industry it can help start something. Yeah wishful thinking maybe but its an arguement/discussion we must have.

As many know I get pretty heated with this topic. But the reason is mostly because those at a particular few regionals do not seem to realize what its doing to the industry. Yet those same regionals flying these types of equipment are in a hurry for Mesa to fold and take over some of their flying..... Its just out of control to put it simple. I dunno... Perhaps its a loss cause with the attitude of some already portrayed on this forum?

Well, if you really wanted to be technical, only Mesa truly flies the CRJ-900.

Everyone else flies the CRJ-705!

[Seggy]

Mesaba and Skywest fly the -900.

[Dan208B]

How about the new Bombardier "C Series"? I'd be willing to bet the majority of those will go to majors, but im also certain some regionals will see them. RAH likely not though, BB is too big of an E-Jet fan...

[Dan208B]

And just for the record, I have to say it. I've said before I don't care much whether we get 190s because up front its the same but I have no interest in flying for a mainline passenger airline at any point during my career. I'd rather be at RAH flying the 170/175 than at mainline airways on the 190. Don't interpret this wrong, I mean what I say. Mostly for job security and employee morale. I have no intention of making a career of RAH, but if we get 190s and they pay more, why not fly them?

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by Dan208B

Mostly for job security...

No such thing in this business.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by Dan208B

How about the new Bombardier "C Series"? I'd be willing to bet the majority of those will go to majors, but im also certain some regionals will see them. RAH likely not though, BB is too big of an E-Jet fan...

Hmm.... not sure about this one.... I personally have no knowledge. However if its one of those inbetween (being the current largest regional plane and close to the smallest major AC) you might be right. Some very well could.

ALSO Max.... RJ9's are at Mesaba, Pinnacle, Comair, Skywest, Mesa as of now. I guess this is the part of me that wonders if we will see change. Due to the amount of regionals already flying the RJ900s and then you throw the E175 into that combination.... Perhaps it might just be too late to make a good change. But like we saw in that letter from the UAL union rep they are getting tired of all these little jets taking jobs. SO perhaps the majors will finally step it up a notch to try to recapture some of their flying. Who knows... Thus its a good thing to discuss.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Seggy

Mesaba and Skywest fly the -900.

Nope. Technically only Mesa does.

CRJ-900=86 seats.

CRJ-705, 900 air frame but with 76 seats, but officially designated by Bombardier, the manufactuer as a CRJ-705, not a 900!

[deadstick]

Ok, throw the 170/5 in there, too. There is nothing "regional" about some of the legs they fly.

FWIW, here is a piece out of the Bombardier Annual Report. Good news is that the Q400 back log is about 19 months. The owner of the 15 CRJ1000's still is unnamed...

Demand for air travel
Mainline airlines continue to outsource routes to their regional
airline partners to reduce costs. Regional airlines are shifting
new aircraft purchases to larger‑capacity aircraft. This shift
is due to the lower seat‑kilometre costs offered by larger
aircraft, which help maintain the airlines’ profitability even
in a depressed fare environment.

Scope clauses
In the U.S. and Europe, the pilot scope-clause environment
continues to evolve to gradually permit a higher number of
larger regional jets to be flown by regional airlines affiliated
with mainline airlines through a code-sharing agreement.

Market driver outlook
Scope clauses ^ (indicated as a good thing for Bombardier)
In the medium term, the relaxation of pilot scope clauses appears to be trending from 50‑seat aircraft toward 100-seat aircraft. These changes will progressively affect the regional airline industry over the next few years.

Single-aisle mainline jets
The 100- to 149‑seat commercial aircraft market segment
provides the foundation for a future wave of industry growth
(ed.: Just waiting for the next wave of SJSer drooling over the C-Series)

[inside0ut]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

You get paid better then airways? Check your sources there buddy.

No doubt buddy. Check your sources. Ever see what a mainline airways pilot on the 190 tops out at? Keep checking.

And its cool you dont like RAH pilots. Anything else you are free to PM me.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Dan208B

How about the new Bombardier "C Series"? I'd be willing to bet the majority of those will go to majors, but im also certain some regionals will see them. RAH likely not though, BB is too big of an E-Jet fan...

Bombardier is aiming the C-Series directly at mainline (here in the states) as a 737 classic replacement jet.

It will be considerably larger than the largest E-Jet, the 195!

Think it will be about the size of a classic 300/500 or NG 700 for the largest model of the C-series.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by inside0ut

No doubt buddy. Check your sources. Ever see what a mainline airways pilot on the 190 tops out at? Keep checking.

And its cool you dont like RAH pilots. Anything else you are free to PM me.

hmmm... i dont even want to touch this guy.... anyone else care to? Apparently he is unaware of APC...Top out at? WHo the heck are you kidding? You are at the airlines... Wow you ever hear of a change of AC... No one is topping out at Airways in the darn E190. They can change AC. Also that's pay scale is pretty darn new. Just happen. WOW your attitude is what kills me about some of you over there.

enjoy your career at RAH??? I assume that's where you plan on staying put for your duration of it?

Lastly RAH pilots? No problems at all. I have issues with those who continue to justify outsourcing labor. Taking jobs, under cutting. What would you say then separates you from Mesa? Seems you all would be able to talk about Mesa for a while now would you not? Nothing against pilots. I have buddies there. Most of whom are intelligent and understand this situation. And if asked will vote down E190s....

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by deadstick

Ok, throw the 170/5 in there, too. There is nothing "regional" about some of the legs they fly.

FWIW, here is a piece out of the Bombardier Annual Report. Good news is that the Q400 back log is about 19 months. The owner of the 15 CRJ1000's still is unnamed...

Demand for air travel
Mainline airlines continue to outsource routes to their regional
airline partners to reduce costs. Regional airlines are shifting
new aircraft purchases to larger‑capacity aircraft. This shift
is due to the lower seat‑kilometre costs offered by larger
aircraft, which help maintain the airlines’ profitability even
in a depressed fare environment.

Scope clauses
In the U.S. and Europe, the pilot scope-clause environment
continues to evolve to gradually permit a higher number of
larger regional jets to be flown by regional airlines affiliated
with mainline airlines through a code-sharing agreement.

Market driver outlook
Scope clauses ^ (indicated as a good thing for Bombardier)
In the medium term, the relaxation of pilot scope clauses appears to be trending from 50‑seat aircraft toward 100-seat aircraft. These changes will progressively affect the regional airline industry over the next few years.

Single-aisle mainline jets
The 100- to 149‑seat commercial aircraft market segment
provides the foundation for a future wave of industry growth
(ed.: Just waiting for the next wave of SJSer drooling over the C-Series)

Where's the closest toilet I need to go barf.... WOW. Simply wow. Any report on if those are USairlines on the CRJ1000 as well? Interesting stuff.

[SteveC]

I like eggs. Eggs are nice for breakfast.

[Dan208B]

Eggs are good. Do you prefer them over-easy or scrambled? Or maybe even in omelette form?

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I like eggs. Eggs are nice for breakfast.

Is that with cheese, some hashbrowns and a nice big cup of milk? I would agree 100%

[Dan208B]

Actually im going to go with Eggs Benedict being the best way to serve them.

[deadstick]

First of all, let me say I'm glad to see so many of us have the same active social life that affords us the luxury of spending a Saturday night on JC with all of our friends.

Second, let me add to my post from earlier.

I feel that if people choose to stay at their regional and retire there (at 65!!! Uhg! not now...later), then that is their choice. Live long (at least well past 65) and prosper. But with that choice comes certain realities, like you will never fly a 747 or A380 from RDU-CLT, STL-PIA, ATL-BHM, or SLC-SFO. But where do we draw the line?

(This is only my opinion, and we all know the punchline about that.)
I feel that it is the responsibility of the mainline pilots to fight for what they believe should be mainline flying. It is the responsibility of regional pilots to fight for what they believe is their flying, but not to lose sight of their future. Wanting a _____ (insert "big regional" ac type here) now may mean you never get that dream job you planned to have in 5 years. You may think that you make enough now as a CRJ CA on reserve, but what about after a spouse and 1-4 children? Do you want to stay in an apartment, or buy a house? College could be $100k/yr in 20 years (now x that by your 4 children). Good thing we can work until we're 65 now! Sorry, had to throw that in.

So there are 3 groups (maybe more...?) involved in this scenario: Mainline pilots, Regional-'til-retirement pilots, and regional-'til-mainline pilots. How do we go about working towards our goals? JC is not the answer, sorry. If there were only some organization that could help with this....

Yea, I'm talking about our unions. I'm not promoting one flavor of the alphabet soup over another. The key is to get involved. At the mainlines, people seem more passionate about their union because that is were they are going to stay...for at least 5 more years than they had planned. At the regionals, the pilots have been using their airline as a stepping stone. Few planned to stay until the next contract, and many just wanted to get their time and move on. The ways things are going right now, well, I really hope people like where they are at.

Your future, whatever it is, is in your hands. Get involved. If you don't want 90-100 seat aircraft at your airline because of your future plans, then let your voice be heard. If you want better pay rates, QOL, benefits -- whatever -- get involved. There has been just too much apathy. Too much talkin', not enough doin'.

It's just like an election. If you don't vote, you don't get to gripe.


Carry on.

[inside0ut]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

hmmm... i dont even want to touch this guy.... anyone else care to? Apparently he is unaware of APC...Top out at? WHo the heck are you kidding? You are at the airlines... Wow you ever hear of a change of AC... No one is topping out at Airways in the darn E190. They can change AC. Also that's pay scale is pretty darn new. Just happen. WOW your attitude is what kills me about some of you over there.

enjoy your career at RAH??? I assume that's where you plan on staying put for your duration of it?

Lastly RAH pilots? No problems at all. I have issues with those who continue to justify outsourcing labor. Taking jobs, under cutting. What would you say then separates you from Mesa? Seems you all would be able to talk about Mesa for a while now would you not? Nothing against pilots. I have buddies there. Most of whom are intelligent and understand this situation. And if asked will vote down E190s....

If you have any more comments you care to make to me, please do it by PM. Im really getting tired of your diatribes against RAH.

[higney85]

I love lamp.

[777forever]

Once again, 190s are not coming close to RAH. I know everyone has seen that plane. That is NOT a regional airplane. Not even close. The CRJ-900 and E175 is already pushing it past the limit. If RAH were to get a 190 that means some mainline pilot group were willing to give up scope. I don't think that'll be happening again. If anything I hoping they take the scope back(wishful thinking) to something like CAL's. If Bedford wants to fly a 100 seat turboprop around by all means, have fun with it....