USAPA/US Air questions

[WacoFan]

Couple of questions about the recent overthrow of ALPA at US Air.

1) What is the economic impact of the US Air/America West pilots to ALPA. Something over 5,000 pilots are going to stop paying 1.95% (I believe). What is the dollar amount of this, and what is the impact to ALPA's overall budget?

2) What do the West guys do? If they don't join (and I wouldn't), what job protections do they have for grievances, legal issues, etc?

3) Is it worth it for West guys to join USAPA just to recieve whatever protection they can recieve rather than to be completely uncovered?

4) Will the resulting decline in revenue to ALPA result in a diminished amount of services to ALPA members at other airlines?

5) Has there been talk of a "jumpseat war" towards USAPA pilots by ALPA carriers?

Sorry if these are stupid questions, just things I am wondering. Thanks.

[Kristie]

I understand why you're questioning it...and it's ok...

But....Let's not even get into jumpseat wars...To be honest, there shouldn't be jumpseat wars based on whether a company is unionized or not. That's something that only one man on this website talks about and agrees with and we're not going to allow that conversation to gain attention because we (and most others on here) don't agree with it.

My best advice if you really want to know about the jumpseat thing is to go onto the ALPA forums or ask any ALPA representatives...my bet is that they'll tell you the same thing we are, that it's not something the union approves of...nor do we, on this website.

just wanted to clear that up before we have any conversations that turn into jumpseat "flame" wars on here..we will never condone utilizing the jumpseat "for your own means" esp when it comes to union specific, that's just wrong.

[WacoFan]

Originally Posted by Kristie

I understand why you're questioning it...and it's ok...

But....Let's not even get into jumpseat wars...To be honest, there shouldn't be jumpseat wars based on whether a company is unionized or not. That's something that only one man on this website talks about and agrees with and we're not going to allow that conversation to gain attention because we (and most others on here) don't agree with it.

My best advice if you really want to know about the jumpseat thing is to go onto the ALPA forums or ask any ALPA representatives...my bet is that they'll tell you the same thing we are, that it's not something the union approves of...nor do we, on this website.

just wanted to clear that up before we have any conversations that turn into jumpseat "flame" wars on here..we will never condone utilizing the jumpseat "for your own means" esp when it comes to union specific, that's just wrong.

Understand your response and upon reflection you are right - shouldn't have even asked. I was just wondering based upon some of the things I have read here and wondered if it was going to happen. You are correct that it is probably better not even mentioned - I apologize.

An additional question is what happens to a pilot, particularly a West pilot, who is in the middle of a grievance or job action. This was touched on in the USAir gun-pilot post, a little, but that was an East guy.

What happens to a West guy, in the middle of some kind of grievance that ALPA has been handling and is intimately familiar with, and now they have to drop him like a stone. This guy HAS to join USAPA or have NO protection - is this correct? Sucks for them, thats for sure.

Ag Flying is more lucrative, you fly cooler airplanes (tailwheels, and some still have radials) and you don't have to worry about this crap.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

Couple of questions about the recent overthrow of ALPA at US Air.

1) What is the economic impact of the US Air/America West pilots to ALPA. Something over 5,000 pilots are going to stop paying 1.95% (I believe). What is the dollar amount of this, and what is the impact to ALPA's overall budget?

A rough estimate of the dues revenue lost would be in the neighborhood of $12 million per year. You can figure a couple million per year is usually used to support the AAA MEC, plus several million every few years for MCF grants during contract negotiations and other major issues, so the net amount lost to the Association would be in the neighborhood of $5 million per year. It's not good, and will probably result in cuts to certain departments and increased fees to independent unions that have to utilize ALPA services to make up for the shortfall. However, ALPA has roughly $85 million in the Major Contingency Fund (MCF), and that can always be used to supplement the normal Operating Contingency Fund (OCF) by a simple vote of the Executive Council. Overall, the hit shouldn't be too bad for the Association. The loss of a carrier like United or Delta would be much worse for the Association. However, there is a huge intangible loss to the Association: AAA Captain Chris Beebe, Vice President-Finance, who is one of the finest men and union reps that I've ever met. I can think of no one in the Association that is capable of taking his place. His loss will be tough for the Association.

2) What do the West guys do? If they don't join (and I wouldn't), what job protections do they have for grievances, legal issues, etc?

The System Board of Adjustment will likely still be open to them to handle grievance issues, but they'll have to fight them themselves without union assistance. They can always also hire their own attorneys if they'd like.

3) Is it worth it for West guys to join USAPA just to recieve whatever protection they can recieve rather than to be completely uncovered?

Most of them would rather take the risk of lacking protections rather than give a dime to USAPA. The problem for the West with giving dues to USAPA is that they would be funding the very organization that is actively trying to abrogate their seniority rights and hold up their contract negotiations. It's a lose-lose situation, but I think they're better off in trying to bankrupt USAPA so they can bring ALPA back at some point for some true protection.

4) Will the resulting decline in revenue to ALPA result in a diminished amount of services to ALPA members at other airlines?

Most likely not.

5) Has there been talk of a "jumpseat war" towards USAPA pilots by ALPA carriers?

Based on the forum rules, I can't give you my opinion on this question. That should tell you all you need to know.

[WacoFan]

Ok - here is one that may make PCL's head explode - sorry if that happens PCL

I am not a SCAB supporter by any means. My Grandpa was a staunch ALPA guy, and maybe I can be one day as well. That said...

Let's say the USAPA guys strike. Let's say that they strike over something like not being able to overturn the Arbitrators decision. Do the West guys need to honor the picket line? For that matter, do the West guys need to honor ANY picket line of a group that was created to steal their own chosen Union away and then perform a screw job on them? Anyone crossing a line that wasn't already at West is a SCAB for sure...a Westie crossing the line of a union that was created to ditch their Union AND screw them personally...maybe not so much.

Interested in your thoughts - a Union is only as good as a potential job action they can bring and this hypothetical may become relevant at some point.

[PCL_128]

You know, I really don't think I can answer that question. That would be a true moral dilemma for me. That's about the only time I would ever have to actually consider scabbing to be a viable decision. Tough call.

[MQAAord]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

Ok - here is one that may make PCL's head explode - sorry if that happens PCL

I am not a SCAB supporter by any means. My Grandpa was a staunch ALPA guy, and maybe I can be one day as well. That said...

Let's say the USAPA guys strike. Let's say that they strike over something like not being able to overturn the Arbitrators decision. Do the West guys need to honor the picket line? For that matter, do the West guys need to honor ANY picket line of a group that was created to steal their own chosen Union away and then perform a screw job on them? Anyone crossing a line that wasn't already at West is a SCAB for sure...a Westie crossing the line of a union that was created to ditch their Union AND screw them personally...maybe not so much.

Interested in your thoughts - a Union is only as good as a potential job action they can bring and this hypothetical may become relevant at some point.

My personal opinion: I would never cross a picket line. Period. Even in a circumstance such as the USAPA/US/AAA/ALPA thing I could still never cross a picket line.

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by WacoFan

Understand your response and upon reflection you are right - shouldn't have even asked. I was just wondering based upon some of the things I have read here and wondered if it was going to happen. You are correct that it is probably better not even mentioned - I apologize.

Thank you for proving that we definitely need to get the bad juju off of the site . This whole jumpseat war thing was started by one guy and it's undeniably our fault that we allowed it to continue for too long (i am sorry about that), but that's going to stop because it's just not right to spread bad juju like that among the aviation community.

I'm just realizing now, how amazing it is that "words" can be so effective....new folks come on board and they hear all of us talk and believe most of what has been said (other than debating it) and learn....they even learn from those that think it's ok to go "beyond" the realm of ethics and morals to spread their bad juju to the younger more impressionable new folks in the field.

That's why it's so important for us to stay on track here....NO more unethical unmoral garbage is going to be spread among the community....we all need to work together to facilitate and make sure the new generation continues down a road of ethical and educational awareness

/off the podium


Other than that, opinions on jumpseat wars or what not can be discussed via PM....we don't want it on the open forum, but what you do on your own time is your own biz

[DE727UPS]

"NO more unethical unmoral garbage is going to be spread among the community....we all need to work together to facilitate and make sure the new generation continues down a road of ethical and educational awareness"

Nice to hear from the JC leadership. I think maybe I'll start paying attention to this site again....

[Velocipede]

Krisite,

Just one question that needs an answer on the Open Forum.

What is unethical or amoral about adhereing to you're Union's published policies?