USAir Pilot To Be Fired For Handgun Going Off

[LoadMasterC141]

Keep your H&K in its' holster in flight or you might get canned!

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/pilot.gun/index.html

[surreal1221]

Well, that's at least ONE career death due to this whole gun in the cockpit bit.

Nevertheless, it shouldn't have ever been out in the first place.

Bummer.

Where's ALP....err...uSAPa to provide legal protection / job security?

(HAH!)

[meyers9163]

Came across this article just a moment agian... What a difficult time to be placed into this situation...http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/pil...ef=mpstoryview

[ComplexHiAv8r]

A few minutes late Paul

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general...-approach.html

It will be interesting how this will proceed, that is for sure.

[SpiraMirabilis]

The stowing/locking procedure is in my opinion conducive to this type of accidental discharge. There are no types of law enforcement personnel or even security guards who carry a firearm that follows this type of inane stowing procedures for their weapons -- it has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with politics.

This is all just my humble opinion though. That said he did make a few serious mistakes.

[bdhill1979]

I have three HK USP variants, all in .40 S&W

They DO NOT go off unintentionally

The safety lever not only blocks the trigger from being pulled, it also blocks the hammer from striking the firing pin.

In DA mode the pull on the trigger is 14 pounds (i think) to cock the hammer then release. You have to pull for what feels like a mile. DA mode WILL NOT cock the hammer if the safety is engaged. You can manually cock the hammer with your thumb, but then you are in SA mode.

In SA mode you have to have the safety off, the hammer cocked, and the trigger pulled to fire a round. Trigger pull in SA mode is around 6 pounds.

You have to try really hard to fire a round with this pistol.

[SeanD]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/pilot.gun/index.html

Looks like he plans on fighting the termination.

[Kristie]

I thought the guns were/are supposed to be stowed for the entire flight (unless needed)? if that really is the case, then he overstepped his bounds of being an FSDO and should be punished. Not sure termination is the right punishment though... they could just take him off the FSDO program and let him continue to fly.

I think the reason they might be terminating him is because "someone *could* have gotten killed tho and that's all that matters isn't it?"

[SeanD]

Originally Posted by Kristie

I thought the guns were/are supposed to be stowed for the entire flight (unless needed)? if that really is the case, then he overstepped his bounds of being an FSDO and should be punished. Not sure termination is the right punishment though... they could just take him off the FSDO program and let him continue to fly.

I think the reason they might be terminating him is because "someone *could* have gotten killed tho and that's all that matters isn't it?"

I think its due to the fact he had the gun out during flight when it should have been stowed.

[Texasspilot]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

The stowing/locking procedure is in my opinion conducive to this type of accidental discharge. There are no types of law enforcement personnel or even security guards who carry a firearm that follows this type of inane stowing procedures for their weapons -- it has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with politics.

This is all just my humble opinion though. That said he did make a few serious mistakes.

From the video's i've seen it looks fairly plausible that a unintentional discharge may have happened.

You would figure a quick review of the cockpit tapes would prove whether or not he was horsing around with the pistol or just securing/locking it up before landing.

If the TSA procedures are unsafe then they need to be changed but if he was really just playing with the gun then he needs to be fired.

[PCL_128]

Better call his ALPA rep.......oops, nevermind. I would say call uSAPa, but they probably can't afford phones yet.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by SeanD

I think its due to the fact he had the gun out during flight when it should have been stowed.

That's incorrect. The gun is not required to be stowed during flight. The real problem here is the locking holster. It needs to be eliminated and the FFDOs allowed to carry on their person at all times. If that was the case, then this never would have happened.

[777forever]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Better call his ALPA rep.......oops, nevermind. I would say call uSAPa, but they probably can't afford phones yet.

That is really unfortunate. This guy needs real representation to save his job and its gone...

[Firebird2XC]

Has anybody considered the possibility that this guy was a USAPA guy or an ex ALPA guy or something like that?

ie- maybe this was just an all too convenient excuse?

It really wouldn't surprise me.

That's all I'm gonna say- cause.. the rest has really already been said.

[Champcar]

He should be held accountable for his actions.

[tonyw]

It's a really bad idea to be discharging your weapon during a flight. Yeah, yeah, hello, Captain Obvious.

I can see why he got canned. I usually don't come down on the side of the employer but in this case, I can see why they did it.

[esa17]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Where's ALP....err...uSAPa to provide legal protection / job security?

Originally Posted by 777forever

That is really unfortunate. This guy needs real representation to save his job and its gone...

I'm just curious as to why people think he should be allowed to keep his job. I'm a supporter of armed cockpits but this sort of thing is indefensible and certainly inexcusable. In my 25+ years of owning firearms I had one accidentally discharge once....and it was my fault.

Originally Posted by Champcar

He should be held accountable for his actions.

Seconded! Hold him accountable right out the door.

[JulietBravo]

I definitely agree with the employer here because, although it was an unfortunate accident, he should have "exercised extreme caution" when putting the gun back into the case. We've all heard that one before. Either way, by the sounds of it, it was his fault but I was not in the cockpit to witness it.

My real question is that I know people have been saying it shouldn't be out in the cockpit and blah blah... But I have heard from a few people he is in some sort of "Flight deck arms program"?? (I know that's not the name, but you get the idea) Anyways, it says that he is required to take the gun out of the case, and holster it during flight. He is only required to unlock the case and holster the gun at the beginning of the flight, and then must put the gun back in the locked case before landing. Even if the pilot has to leave the flight deck for whatever reason, he/she must put the gun back into the locked case and the other pilot must not even know the combination. That is what I heard, can anyone back me up on this info??

[meyers9163]

Lets put this into perspective...... This man was accidentally placing his weapon somehwere else while on final. He is allowed to carry the weapon and therefore help the company out by doing so. If he were a police officer should he be fired for his weapon being fired accidentally? If he were an FBI agent and his weapon went off should they be fired? Lets change this to more typical careers, if he's a doctor and one accident perhaps makes a little too far of a cut on a person that requires more stiches should they be fired? The fact of the matter is you are all hypocrites if you say you have never made a mistake. Thefore calling for this mans head is out of control. If you dare say you are perfect and have never made a mistake I have a man I want you to meet when I pass away pretty far up in the skies..... He who hasnt made a mistake feel free to cast a stone but seriously guys...... You all sound like a bunch of hungry dogs who havent been fed and a piece of meat jsut fell infront of your faces....... This is a mans live, career, etc etc etc and you all have no compassion at all!

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Lets put this into perspective......

Indeed - let's compare it to the US Military. In the Army there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge." It is a "negligent" discharge because allowing a weapon to to fire implies the operator was negligent in their duties. The reason for the distinction should be obvious; the severity of the consequences can be great if someone allows a firearm to discharge unintentionally. I personally know of a former soldier who has only one leg because his buddy "accidentally" allowed a machine gun to fire. Imagine if the other pilot had been hit in this case. What would the consequences have been then? Then think that the only reason the bullet didn't hurt/kill anyone was because of blind luck.

Through training and very routine discussions on the subject, negligent discharges can nearly be eliminated. One thing the airlines might consider is to emplace a written policy detailing the punishment if a negligent discharge occurs. That would remove ambiguity and would possibly encourage an extra bit of safety from the FFDOs. In the Army a soldier knows exactly what will happen to them if they have a negligent discharge. There is no surprises and no debate.

[Champcar]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Lets put this into perspective...... This man was accidentally placing his weapon somehwere else while on final. He is allowed to carry the weapon and therefore help the company out by doing so. If he were a police officer should he be fired for his weapon being fired accidentally? If he were an FBI agent and his weapon went off should they be fired? Lets change this to more typical careers, if he's a doctor and one accident perhaps makes a little too far of a cut on a person that requires more stiches should they be fired? The fact of the matter is you are all hypocrites if you say you have never made a mistake. Thefore calling for this mans head is out of control. If you dare say you are perfect and have never made a mistake I have a man I want you to meet when I pass away pretty far up in the skies..... He who hasnt made a mistake feel free to cast a stone but seriously guys...... You all sound like a bunch of hungry dogs who havent been fed and a piece of meat jsut fell infront of your faces....... This is a mans live, career, etc etc etc and you all have no compassion at all!

His "mistake" was a big one. Intention shouldn't matter, it's the act that counts. It may be his career but he should of been more careful or just left it alone. Guns don't just go off on their own, he should be held accountable for his act, end of story.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Indeed - let's compare it to the US Military. In the Army there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge." It is a "negligent" discharge because allowing a weapon to to fire implies the operator was negligent in their duties. The reason for the distinction should be obvious; the severity of the consequences can be great if someone allows a firearm to discharge unintentionally. I personally know of a former soldier who has only one leg because his buddy "accidentally" allowed a machine gun to fire. Imagine if the other pilot had been hit in this case. What would the consequences have been then? Then think that the only reason the bullet didn't hurt/kill anyone was because of blind luck.

Through training and very routine discussions on the subject, negligent discharges can nearly be eliminated. One thing the airlines might consider is to emplace a written policy detailing the punishment if a negligent discharge occurs. That would remove ambiguity and would possibly encourage an extra bit of safety from the FFDOs. In the Army a soldier knows exactly what will happen to them if they have a negligent discharge. There is no surprises and no debate.

Not debating! However to call for this mans neck is crazy..... Thus the comparison of dogs and meat..... Seriously have you never made a mistake? I could care less. Lets thank god there was no one injured fine. HOWEVER to take his job is insane..... Period!

ps lets go back to the military.... Pat Tilman? Friendly fire right, did anyone lose their job or get charged for his death!

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by Champcar

His "mistake" was a big one. Intention shouldn't matter, it's the act that counts. It may be his career but he should of been more careful or just left it alone. Guns don't just go off on their own, he should be held accountable for his act, end of story.

Intention indeed matters! Hell just look at the law.... Did I plan it out and murder this person or was it spur of the moment. Hmm yeah in our society intention has EVERYTHING to do with it. Many FDO transfer their weapon. Many do it on the ground at the gate where people are. At least this man was doing it on approach. I dont know I differ with all of you. To take this mans job is just insane. I've heard too many times of accidental discharges. They happen, happen all the time.... If I need i'll go get the stats.....

[Ian J]

I'm not debating either - I'm opining.

It's not about making a mistake - it's about the type of mistake made. If I gear up a plane at my part 135 job, shouldn't I face some consequences? Maybe even be fired? I'm trained to not gear up planes just like FFDOs are trained not to fire their weapons by mistake.

Taking his job? I don't know. In the military no one would be discharged for a first time offense, but they would probably be demoted and have some pay taken away (and some other stuff that wouldn't apply in the civilian world.)

Like I said, it would probably good if there was a written policy in place.

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Better call his ALPA rep.......oops, nevermind. I would say call uSAPa, but they probably can't afford phones yet.

careful ...let's not go down that road now mmmkay?! we gotta keep working on the civility.