ALPA out....USAPA in???

[Kristie]

PHOENIX - Frustrated by an internal dispute over seniority, US Airways pilots on Thursday ousted their union of 59 years and agreed to be represented by another group.

The rare decertification election, supervised by the federal National Mediation Board, gave the fledgling US Airline Pilots Association the right to represent the 5,300 pilots in US Airways' system.

The group was created and supported mostly by pilots from the former, Virginia-based US Airways who clashed with other pilots after their carrier was acquired by America West in 2005.

Their struggles have become a cautionary tale as a new wave of combination talks sweep through the industry.

Though the Tempe, Ariz.-based carrier's profit surged in the first year after the combination, problems among its pilots have continued to fester.

Pilots have said that disagreements over seniority have led to shouting matches in airport terminals. Supporters of rival pilot unions, the Air Line Pilots Association and the US Airline Pilots Association, have sent each other threatening e-mails, engaged in at least one shoving match and called each other to the parking lot to settle their arguments.

Seniority is extremely important for pilots. Their place in the company pecking order decides what planes they can fly, what routes they'll take, and when they can go on vacation.

Northwest Airlines Corp. and Delta Air Lines Inc. hoped their pilots would agree on seniority before announcing plans to join forces earlier this week. But Northwest pilots refused to go along and the companies moved ahead without a pilot agreement.

US Airways Group Inc. has agreed to contracts with all of its employee groups except pilots, flight attendants and baggage and ramp employees. The baggage and ramp employee union signed off on a tentative agreement last week.

BUT... today is thursday....so is the AP out a little early???? so what was the vote tally? they don't specify here.

[MikeOH58]

Sorry PCL

[kellwolf]

That's sorta the way I read it. Although if they vote the same people in charge, it'll be the same problems with a different logo.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

That's sorta the way I read it. Although if they vote the same people in charge, it'll be the same problems with a different logo.

They already did. The goofs running uSAPa are the same guys who were running the MECs who got them into this pickle. They're the ones who insisted on DoH even AFTER the arbitrator told them it wasn't going that way.

"Full pay 'til the last day!" - USAPA motto.

[Hacker15e]

So, is the next stop going to be dragging America West into bankruptcy with them?

Why just deep-six one airline when you can have, in effect, two?!

[Kristie]

so how is this new union going to fix anything????

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by Kristie

so how is this new union going to fix anything????

It's not. It's just a coup- a childish attempt to circumvent a binding arbitration decision that didn't go the way some wanted it to go.

I had a dark thought earlier- this may not bankrupt USAir.

What it could do is thus- USAPA goes bankrupt. With no funds to drive their union infrastructure, the union becomes a powerless facade.

Following this, management steps in and says 'enough of this' and summarily fires

1) Union leaders- be they ALPA or USAPA.
2) Dissenters that would be leaders.
3) Anybody else they feel like.

After which, they impose concessions on the remaining pilot group.
A union with no money and no general support isn't much.

Even Patton's tanks were useless without fuel.

So much for 'full pay until the last day' or whatever.

The USAir pilot group - airline regardless- just dug its own grave.

[flywithUS]

I am pretty sure my position on this matter is widely known here, so I will try to limit my words.

US pilots have long been a positive for ALPA. For nearly 60 years they have been in good standing and a leader for this union. Nearly all of the pilots have been with ALPA for at least 20 years. Many have been with ALPA longer than a lot of people on this board have been alive, including me. They are a professional group. They are an educated group. They are dedicated to safety, and believe it or not, they are dedicated to their airline.

With that being said, why can't people actually believe, that maybe, just maybe, ALPA actually did something to cause this? And maybe, just maybe, ALPA is not the right union for US pilots at this certain time. What right do any of us have to judge the pilots. None of us were in their shoes.

Without a doubt, ALPA is a good thing for this industry. But maybe, just maybe, ALPA isn't for every pilot group at certain times.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by Kristie

BUT... today is thursday....so is the AP out a little early???? so what was the vote tally? they don't specify here.

Vote tally:

uSAPa - 55%
ALPA - 45%
Management - Victory!

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

Sorry PCL

Don't say sorry to me. Say it to the former AWA pilots that are now without any real representation. They had a great airline and a great union, now they have a failing airline and no true representation. Sad.

Originally Posted by Kristie

so how is this new union going to fix anything????

They won't. The truth is, they don't have enough money to even run an initial election for new officers. They're asking for $200 from each pilot just to run the election. The West pilots won't pay dues, and the East pilots can't support an entire union on just their dues income.

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

I had a dark thought earlier- this may not bankrupt USAir.

What it could do is thus- USAPA goes bankrupt. With no funds to drive their union infrastructure, the union becomes a powerless facade.

Following this, management steps in and says 'enough of this' and summarily fires

1) Union leaders- be they ALPA or USAPA.
2) Dissenters that would be leaders.
3) Anybody else they feel like.

After which, they impose concessions on the remaining pilot group.
A union with no money and no general support isn't much.

Even Patton's tanks were useless without fuel.

So much for 'full pay until the last day' or whatever.

The USAir pilot group - airline regardless- just dug its own grave.

You are correct, sir. uSAPa will likely bankrupt itself in short order, and then the pilots will be left with nothing. They can't even run back to ALPA for at least two years, as the NMB will not hold another election after a decertification vote for at least that long.

[Kristie]

FlywithUS... i'm not seeing how this would be the fault of ALPA....ALPA was working for the East....ALPA was working for the West....granted, they corroborated together to try and get a meaningful solution but it was the pilots who voted and disagreed with the method of stapling...not ALPA.

The way I've been seeing it (and maybe i'm wrong, who knows) is that ALPA was the mediating body between the two... it was the East pilots themselves that wouldn't agree to anything other than DOH stapling and that would have moved every single West pilot down to the bottom of the totem pole... same as what NWA MEC wants at DL. you can't always have your cake and eat it too...sometimes, the benefit is in the sharing of cake and even fork...cuz now, there's no benefits to help any of the pilots at USAirways.

[flywithUS]

Originally Posted by Kristie

FlywithUS... i'm not seeing how this would be the fault of ALPA....ALPA was working for the East....ALPA was working for the West....granted, they corroborated together to try and get a meaningful solution but it was the pilots who voted and disagreed with the method of stapling...not ALPA.

The way I've been seeing it (and maybe i'm wrong, who knows) is that ALPA was the mediating body between the two... it was the East pilots themselves that wouldn't agree to anything other than DOH stapling and that would have moved every single West pilot down to the bottom of the totem pole... same as what NWA MEC wants at DL. you can't always have your cake and eat it too...sometimes, the benefit is in the sharing of cake and even fork...cuz now, there's no benefits to help any of the pilots at USAirways.

I'm not specifically talking about the merger. Just like war, there is no one event that causes it. There is always a chain-of-events.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Kristie

so how is this new union going to fix anything????

It's not.

It's largely a false panacea.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Vote tally:
You are correct, sir. uSAPa will likely bankrupt itself in short order, and then the pilots will be left with nothing. They can't even run back to ALPA for at least two years, as the NMB will not hold another election after a decertification vote for at least that long.

I'm a pro-union guy, sure, but I can see that unions have their pitfalls.

It's just sad that they just shot themselves in the foot in a MAJOR way.

I quipped a while back that Doug Parker had mentioned that the only way to raise ticket prices was reduce available seats, and how I thought it ironic that he couldn't have meant his own airline folding.

Maybe I was half wrong- maybe it won't fold, but with arguably no growth capacity and a possibility to implode, they're just going to lose marketshare and fade into obscurity.

[meyers9163]

Lets throw all this other BS out the door and lets face it.... Get a flipping National Seniority system established and this crap would not have kept rolling and have some who do not even have ties with Airways flipping. In addition lets argue about those who dont have ALPA.... I dont hear any of you going crazy about AA, Southwest, RAH etc etc.....

Let it work itself out and whatever happens happens....... Seriously though that's what majority of the pilots wanted therefore thats what they got. The pilots voted and this is what they will live with. Now who here is going to stand up and say you were wrong if this union were to work out great for them? Yeah that's what I thought.......

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by flywithUS

I'm not specifically talking about the merger. Just like war, there is no one event that causes it. There is always a chain-of-events.

Just like the easties building their own strawman.

They agreed to arbitration, and well. . .they just didn't like the decision. On top of trying to point the fingers at ALPA national instead of their Local ALPA representation.

But hey - tell yourself whatever you must.

Also, let us not forget the amount of debt that will still have to be paid somehow to ALPA for services rendered. I hadn't even thought of that side of things until the outcome of this vote were stated during our LEC meeting this afternoon. I wonder what that bill is.

[Airdale]

My personal belief is that Airways (the company) will benefit, but not the pilots. This won't fold the company, far from it I believe. Airways is running flights packed to the door jams, often oversold. They aren't going anywhere anytime soon. What could happen though, is the pilots lose any type of leverage they actually had and now the ball bounces in Parker's court. Just what he wants. I see a stronger Airways (financially) and weaker pilot group.

As stated before though, none of us that have posted here (to my knowledge) are Airways pilots. So before you throw stones at your fellow pilots, maybe we just need to shut up and watch.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Also, let us not forget the amount of debt that will still have to be paid somehow to ALPA for services rendered.

Well thats up to the pilots then. So again, how does the company suffer?

[surreal1221]

Watching the uSAPa Road Show videos (from both sources [ALPA and USAPA]) was all I needed to see.

"Another name for Tyranny of the Majority is Democracy"

Originally Posted by Airdale

Well thats up to the pilots then. So again, how does the company suffer?

You're right. . .did I ever say anything about the company suffering?

Don't mix up who is saying what.

My concern is that that debt, if it goes unpaid, will eventually be reflected toward the rest of us who are still part of ALPA. Hence, reducing the spending power of the national union to support ALL of our causes. Just because some babies from US Airways East didn't like the arbitrator's decision.

I heard one figure today that was in the ten million dollar range. That's one hell of a debt to just up and walk away from, and I hope ALPA goes after the rightful owners of that debt.

I don't want MY union to see a reduction in spending power because of a couple of sore losers.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Well thats up to the pilots then. So again, how does the company suffer?

Escalated bickering between the two halves of the pilot group represent a whole host of problems system wide. Think it like throwing sand in your engine's oil sump. On the whole, one small sand grain might not make much different, but if it were a pile of sand that grows over time...

Not to mention the fact that both sides will be leveraged against each other by management, but in turn, both sides will try to strong arm management..

Given the cost of fuel these days, how critical do you think fuel conservation is? I've seen more than one USAirways Airbus taxiing to the gate with both engines running and the APU, too. That's a lot of gas.

While USAirways churns in the juices of all that collective labor vitriol, the other airlines are consolidating, finding ways to grow, and come out of the fuel price surge financially healthy.

USAirways wasn't doing so well financially to begin with. Load factors are good, sure, but if you're bleeding out faster than you can put it back in, then eventually the system will break down.

Imagine if USAPA tries to lay down some sort of agenda and the Westies won't have it. What's to stop them from a massive sick out, or calling for a strike of 'their half' of the system? The possibilities for mayhem are endless.

That's the problem that USAirways has on its hands right now.

[H46Bubba]

How many pilots are AAA and how many are HP?

[Doug Taylor]

More AAA's than HP's.

The sad thing is, either way you go the airline business doesn't operate in a vacuum.

Their major competitors are probably salivating over increased labor strife, especially SWA right there in their largest hub. CAL's probably salivating over their Latin America overlap and I'm sure there are some gleeful marketing guys in DFW and ATL looking at the Europe Ops.

If either side loses sight of the need to quickly solve their differences, there's going to be a massive amount of bloodletting.

I can virtually guarantee you if they run costs up because they're pissy like burning two engines and an APU, slowing to a crawl, their competitors are going to eat them alive with $115/bbl oil.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

More AAA's than HP's.

The sad thing is, either way you go the airline business doesn't operate in a vacuum.

Their major competitors are probably salivating over increased labor strife, especially SWA right there in their largest hub. CAL's probably salivating over their Latin America overlap and I'm sure there are some gleeful marketing guys in DFW and ATL looking at the Europe Ops.

If either side loses sight of the need to quickly solve their differences, there's going to be a massive amount of bloodletting.

I can virtually guarantee you if they run costs up because they're pissy like burning two engines and an APU, slowing to a crawl, their competitors are going to eat them alive with $115/bbl oil.

Hopefully Delta/Northwest & United/Continental pilot groups are watching the impending melee!

[Doug Taylor]

Doesn't really matter what the pilots think, it's all about what management's after.

They already understand the "pilot mentality" as they can spend a lunch break on the 12 billion airline-related forums and get a good picture.

You want to break a union? You already know the game plan as it's simple.

Mix a sense of entitlement, with a bunch of type-A's, throw in a little bitterness and some 'us plus them'... Bust the union, split the groups, save money.

Ben Franklin said it best: We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately.

Far too much emphasis on the cutthroat domestic network to not wrap this episode up quickly, come to something agreeable and compete.

Naturally, my opinion only, I'm busy studying so I don't have time for a dissertation about my fears for the airline.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by flywithUS

With that being said, why can't people actually believe, that maybe, just maybe, ALPA actually did something to cause this? And maybe, just maybe, ALPA is not the right union for US pilots at this certain time. What right do any of us have to judge the pilots. None of us were in their shoes.

So, other than the logo, what is different about USAPA than ALPA? Same local guys in charge, so you'd get the same answer to the arbitrator, thus triggering the same decision. The union as a whole wasn't to blame, it was the local leadership that was to blame.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

So, other than the logo, what is different about USAPA than ALPA? Same local guys in charge, so you'd get the same answer to the arbitrator, thus triggering the same decision. The union as a whole wasn't to blame, it was the local leadership that was to blame.