T-Storm/No Radar

[gtpilot]

Was doing company required jumpseat IOE yesterday - flew with a crew to EVV round trip and wanted to stay with them when they went to GSP but the flight was full. So I grab a flight to CHA instead (mid-early afternoon). Just after T/O I head the captain on the ship ahead of us (same crew I wanted to ride with) call ATC and say 'Uh, Atlanta we've just been hit by lightning on the nose and it took out our radar'. ATC offered assistance and asked if he wanted to return, he elected to continue to GSP relying on their eyes to get them safely there.

That floored me at first but on the way to CHA I got to see how mediocre our radar is as we went through several moderate+ showers that were painted green on the radar. Then, on the way back to CHA (after a 4 hr delay because of the t-storms) ATC directed us toward an area that was painted red that turned out to be a clear patch of sky. The captain commented on how bad the CRJ's radar was.

I don't remember the LR-JT radar being this unreliable - anyone else fly a jet where you can't really trust the radar?

[greaper007]

I've never flown an RJ but I have heard several people complain about the radar. I've also heard RJ drivers that flew the Saab say they missed our radar. Which is sort of funny because everyone complains about the saabs radar too.

[mikecweb]

I'd say a majority of the "this radar sucks" comments come from guys that really don't know how to use it. Not saying you do or don't, but just swapping into planes where the previous guys say the radar doesn't work and you hop in it and it works fine. Grant it some radars work better then others. Hopefully our resident Radar expert chimes in here eventually.

[Monty]

Originally Posted by gtpilot

Was doing company required jumpseat IOE yesterday - flew with a crew to EVV round trip and wanted to stay with them when they went to GSP but the flight was full. So I grab a flight to CHA instead (mid-early afternoon). Just after T/O I head the captain on the ship ahead of us (same crew I wanted to ride with) call ATC and say 'Uh, Atlanta we've just been hit by lightning on the nose and it took out our radar'. ATC offered assistance and asked if he wanted to return, he elected to continue to GSP relying on their eyes to get them safely there.

That floored me at first but on the way to CHA I got to see how mediocre our radar is as we went through several moderate+ showers that were painted green on the radar. Then, on the way back to CHA (after a 4 hr delay because of the t-storms) ATC directed us toward an area that was painted red that turned out to be a clear patch of sky. The captain commented on how bad the CRJ's radar was.

I don't remember the LR-JT radar being this unreliable - anyone else fly a jet where you can't really trust the radar?

Sounds to me like they didn't know how to use the tilt properly. The radar on the RJ is only as good as the user. If you don't point it where it needs to be, then yep...it's pretty much worthless.

[WalterSobchak]

Most people arent good at using radar. Plus radar is less effective when you are wet and in the stuff. Its for wx avoidence not penetration. When I flew freight non of our piston stuff had radar so you learn to use your eyes and atc.

[BobDDuck]

The CRJ radar is ok, most of the time, and really bad some of the time. It depends on how well you know how to use it really. It has a pretty good update speed, and when the plane has dual controllers installed you can split the data off and get a good picture of what's going on. The problem mostly is tilt and range issues, as well as not using the gain to punch through stuff or avoid seeing areas of light returns.

The radar will go all the way out to 320 miles, but it is useless for seeing anything except super cells beyond 40 to 80 miles. Also, close in (less then 5 miles) is tends to overpaint some stuff. Every spring/summer it takes a few trips through the weather to remember how it works and then it is normally ok.

I was reading about a new digital multiscan radar that is now out that when you press the scan button it takes 8 seconds and sweeps all parts of the sky and uses a bunch of computations to store it in memory, and then what ever range you want to view it at, it displays that, with out rescanning. It also is able to generate a vertical as well as horizontal picture and eliminates 95% of ground clutter. I don't expect to see it put in as replacement units as the current systems work ok, but on new planes it might be nice.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by Monty

Sounds to me like they didn't know how to use the tilt properly. The radar on the RJ is only as good as the user. If you don't point it where it needs to be, then yep...it's pretty much worthless.

Agree. The tilt control is probably the most important knob on that panel. Gain is VERY close second. The areas that are red and severe clear are more than likely ground returns due to the tilt being too low. Like Ethan said, if you see something on the 320 mile range.....go the F around it. If it's picking it up that far out it's probably huge.

The way I normally work it is to set the range out a bit and turn the gain up. If I see something that might be interesting, I'll scale it down and adjust the gain/tilt to figure out what it is. Had a CA try to deviate around CLE one day b/c he thought it was a huge cell with a nasty attenuation behind it. Turned out it was the city and the lake. Map mode is also good for figuring things like that out.

[MirageCM]

This might be a dumb question, but what is IOE?

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Had a CA try to deviate around CLE one day b/c he thought it was a huge cell with a nasty attenuation behind it. Turned out it was the city and the lake. Map mode is also good for figuring things like that out.

I flew with a captain a few years ago (who has since retired) from PIT to DAY. It was a beautiful night, clear and a million. I think we flew that route at 11,000 feet or so as it wasn't more then 100 miles. Anyhow, leveling off just south of Akron I could see CLE, CMH, CRW, DAY, CVG and a glow of lights from IND and DTW.

Well, this guy had the radar on for what ever reason, and had it pointed straight down. Of course, Columbus is showing up as a big red circle on the radar so he has me ask center for 20 degrees left. We had a brief discussion about how I could see the beacon for Dayton and stars above us the whole way there. But he started lecturing me on how you can never be too careful at night, blah blah blah. So south we went (I'm sure center couldn't figure out what was going on) until the radar started picking up CVG and he asked for 4 back to the right to get up to Dayton. That was all well and good (as that's where we were supposed to be going) until he saw the returns for Dayton and got worried about that. About then I pointed out that we were going to land with about 1900 pounds of gas (40 minutes or so) if we headed right to the airport, so we'd better either do that or think about diverting. So we "picked" our way through the returns (even though there wasn't a cloud in the sky) and landed at Dayton.

It was... interesting.

[Sidious]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

I flew with a captain a few years ago (who has since retired) from PIT to DAY. It was a beautiful night, clear and a million. I think we flew that route at 11,000 feet or so as it wasn't more then 100 miles.
It was... interesting.

Did you ever clue him in or would that have been out of place?

Tactfully, I think it would have been benifical to let him know but if he was acting like a jerk then I can see just letting it slide to keep the peace.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

We had a brief discussion about how I could see the beacon for Dayton and stars above us the whole way there. But he started lecturing me on how you can never be too careful at night, blah blah blah.

[jynxyjoe]

It is funny to me how running radar has turned into some sort of dark art.

[Airdale]

Here's a question. I'm being an honest, junior FO here.

Hit by lightning on departure. Would you return to land or continue?

While you really don't need the radar, I would be a bit worried about what else got damaged. Is there an electrical fire waiting to happen? Are the instruments affected at all? Personally, I think I would return to the airport and at least have a mechanic come inspect the aircraft. Might be silly, but getting hit by lightning could have damaged more than just a radar.

Again, this is a serious question for you Captains. I'm just an FO with less than 2000 hours of experience.


Back to the popcorn.....

[falconvalley]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Here's a question. I'm being an honest, junior FO here.

Hit by lightning on departure. Would you return to land or continue?

While you really don't need the radar, I would be a bit worried about what else got damaged. Is there an electrical fire waiting to happen? Are the instruments affected at all? Personally, I think I would return to the airport and at least have a mechanic come inspect the aircraft. Might be silly, but getting hit by lightning could have damaged more than just a radar.

Again, this is a serious question for you Captains. I'm just an FO with less than 2000 hours of experience.


Back to the popcorn.....

Generally it's nothing to worry about, but it's a case by case basis. If you're hit by lightning on departure and you've got a bad feeling in your gut, by all means return! Alot of times, however, you won't even know you were hit by lightning and will discover evidence on your post flight. Always have a good look at the tips of the wings and stab and nose.

[falconvalley]

Originally Posted by MirageCM

This might be a dumb question, but what is IOE?

It's FAA required Initial Operating Experience any time you begin flying in a new airplane or seat under Part 121. You will fly with a Checkairman for those hours. It's usually 20-25 hours.

[Van_Hoolio]

If it were up to me, I'd call company en route. Let them decide if you go back or not. As long as there are no other obvious problems.

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by Van_Hoolio

If it were up to me, I'd call company en route. Let them decide if you go back or not. As long as there are no other obvious problems.

And company is going to be able to determine if it's safe or not to continue?
I'm sorry but this is a pilot's decision.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

And company is going to be able to determine if it's safe or not to continue?
I'm sorry but this is a pilot's decision.

By company, I think he meant company mechanic, who may or may not want to see the aircraft on the ground right away. They're pretty good at what they do for the most part, and I'd say would be able to troubleshoot any problems you may be having over the radio pretty well.

[wheelsup]

The CRJ's RADAR is fine. Is it as good as the larger sets in Boeing products? Nope. But it allows for the seeing and avoiding of T-storms in IMC. It's limited to approximately 45 miles in front of you to determine if a storm really is a storm or not, where as the larger sets can go out to 80+ miles.

As for getting hit by lightning on t/o, if it was VFR enroute and at the destination I'd continue. If you got hit by lightning on t/o that probably means there are storms over the field, or close by. I'm not sure I'd want to attempt an approach back into an airport with known storms w/ no RADAR in IMC. Maybe a diversion to somewhere else would be necessary if there are storms enroute and you are in IMC. There are a lot of factors. But being on fire because of a strike wouldn't be my primary concern, although I have no idea how many strikes result in inflight fires. Is it common? Also I if I remember correctly, the MEL specifically states VMC only if you have no working RADAR.

My last bout with storms asking for ATC's help was practically useless. It might be good for a "big picture" but not very good for specific headings to fly. Learn to use the RADAR correctly and you won't ever be surprised.

[jynxyjoe]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Here's a question. I'm being an honest, junior FO here.

Hit by lightning on departure. Would you return to land or continue?

While you really don't need the radar, I would be a bit worried about what else got damaged. Is there an electrical fire waiting to happen? Are the instruments affected at all? Personally, I think I would return to the airport and at least have a mechanic come inspect the aircraft. Might be silly, but getting hit by lightning could have damaged more than just a radar.

Again, this is a serious question for you Captains. I'm just an FO with less than 2000 hours of experience.


Back to the popcorn.....

Commercial aircraft >than 20 seats are certified by Part 25 to sustain a severe lightning strike and continue. Severe has been described as 40 MV with a 200 KA strike. SAE docs 5412, 5414, 5416 or the DO-160-D/E docs explain in detail the differing levels.

Simply put your aircraft is designed to take a strike, multiple strikes (that is the end of one sequence of strokes, followed by a secondary stroke or more follow ons) are not expressly protected. One 747 I know of was struck thrice on takeoff and returned, so it has happened. I'd have to dig back, and I won't, but i believe after any strike you are expected to only have 50% of your structural limitations for loading. I know it was that way with Part 23 aircraft.

This topic is confusing and if anyone is gimme a PM I'll answer the best I can.

[PCL_128]

Best radar you'll ever find is the system in the BE-1900D. I loved that radar. By comparison, the CRJ radar is very sub-par, but it's still not too bad. If you know how to use it, it does the job pretty well.

Like others have posted, don't use it beyond the 80-mile range. At that range, you can find the weather out ahead to be aware of, then you can scale down to the 40-mile range when you get closer to get a better look. At 40 miles, it does a very good job. Also, keep in mind that the range compensator only works out to 60 miles, so anything beyond that is actually stronger than it appears.

On some planes, the auto-tilt does a pretty good job, but not on others. Just depends on the individual aircraft. General rules of thumb:

- Set the tilt to 5.7 on takeoff. This gives you the best look at the weather by pointing the beam at the meat of any storm cells.

- Set the tilt to 3.2 passing through 10,000ft and turn on the auto-tilt if you'd like to try it. If it works well, then you might not have to touch it again all the way up to cruise.

- If you're not using the auto-tilt, then gradually reduce the tilt as you climb so that you're at about -1.0 tilt in the low 30s at an 80-mile range.


These rules of thumb will work on most of the planes. Occasionally you'll find one that's out of calibration, and you'll have to adjust accordingly. If one of them is way off, then please write it up in the hub. There's no reason for these planes to be flying around with radar out of calibration or with the auto-tilt completely screwed up.

[Baradium]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Best radar you'll ever find is the system in the BE-1900D. I loved that radar. By comparison, the CRJ radar is very sub-par, but it's still not too bad. If you know how to use it, it does the job pretty well.

Like others have posted, don't use it beyond the 80-mile range. At that range, you can find the weather out ahead to be aware of, then you can scale down to the 40-mile range when you get closer to get a better look. At 40 miles, it does a very good job. Also, keep in mind that the range compensator only works out to 60 miles, so anything beyond that is actually stronger than it appears.

On some planes, the auto-tilt does a pretty good job, but not on others. Just depends on the individual aircraft. General rules of thumb:

- Set the tilt to 5.7 on takeoff. This gives you the best look at the weather by pointing the beam at the meat of any storm cells.

- Set the tilt to 3.2 passing through 10,000ft and turn on the auto-tilt if you'd like to try it. If it works well, then you might not have to touch it again all the way up to cruise.

- If you're not using the auto-tilt, then gradually reduce the tilt as you climb so that you're at about -1.0 tilt in the low 30s at an 80-mile range.

The RADAR instructions they gave us last week for the CRJ mentioned something along the lines of not turning on auto tilt except when established in level flight for a few minutes. Can climb after, but not supposed to turn on during climb...

[PCL_128]

Trust me, it works fine when turned on during the climb. As long as you set it properly at about 3.2 at 10k before turning it on, it won't matter whether you turned it on in level flight or not.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by Baradium

The RADAR instructions they gave us last week for the CRJ mentioned something along the lines of not turning on auto tilt except when established in level flight for a few minutes. Can climb after, but not supposed to turn on during climb...

The data for the tilt control in AUTO comes from the off side ADC (I think). However, the RADAR control is set to accept the initial input from the ADC as "level". So, if you are in a climb it's going to think that pitch attitude is level flight and adjust accordingly when you level off. Hence the only turning it on when you are in level flight (or on the ground, but that would prevent you from checking up the departure corridor on take off).

[wheelsup]

Autotilt simply adjusts for different altitude or ranges. Turning it on in the climb shouldn't have any effect on it. For me, it's just easier to do the Range to storm x 10, then adjust the beam tilt up or down to point it in the 20,000 ft level.

I can't find anything that says turning it on assumes the plane is level, where is that info? All I have is a generic Bombardier writeup on the RADAR and it's function, it's very simplistic.