Sim Partner Dragging Me Down

[Copperhed51]

What are you supposed to do when your sim partner is completely screwing you over? I am by no means perfect in the sim...far from it really. We're done with our second sim session and he can't figure out how to fly the plane, do the callouts, and hit the right buttons and switches when he's supposed to. When I'm in the left seat, it's not a big deal to me...I just keep repeating my callout until he finally realizes he's supposed to say something (sometimes it's the right thing, sometimes not). When I'm flying in the right seat, he forgets to make his callouts there, which means I can't make my callouts.

He can't figure out how to program the FMS so the instructor is babying him through it. Meanwhile, I'm blowing through a localizer course because the instructor was too busy to turn me and clear me for the approach. At this point I have to get vectored around for another 10 minutes to get back on the approach. Once again, my partner screws everything up and we have to do it again. Finally we get to do the approach, he screws a bunch of stuff up on there but we make it down and he doesn't call the approach lights or runway in sight when I can tell it's obviously visible. I call for a go around and then he calls the runway in sight. I'm like "too late, we're going around, set max thrust, flaps 9". We fumble through my 2 hours and I feel like I didn't get a damn thing accomplished. He actually got more done during his 2 hours because the instructor wasn't busy babying me through everything (again, I'm not perfect at any of it but I can get through it mostly).

So, what am I supposed to do? He knows he's screwing me over...he told me so. The problem is the company will have no sympathy for me and expects me to get through no matter what. How am I supposed to figure this stuff out when nothing we do ends up being SOP? Anybody have any advice? I'm so frustrated.

[germb747]

What's this person's attitude? Are they someone you can sit down with and express your concerns in an adult and logical manner? Without knowing the personal dynamics involved, it's hard to give specific advice. Some pairings just don't work out--in my class there was one set of sim partners who had to call it quits and switch partners. It almost happened to another pairing but they got through with one extra session. At my company you have to sit down with the training manager half way through the program at which time either student or instructor can change up the pairing and/or instructor if it appears you're being set up for failure.

You're only talking sim #2 here, and I can say my sim partner definitely had problems very early on, but by the time we were done she was flying just as well as me. There wasn't any kind of personality conflict, just a gap in performance which we worked together, chairflew, studied, and practiced until we had it down. There's a steep learning curve and some people just take a few more sessions than others to get up to par. That being said, I never took the attitude that I was being "dragged down"--we were a crew and either succeeded or failed as a team. I know she was beating herself up over it and felt she was the weaker link, but that wasn't the solution.

If they just don't care, there probably isn't a whole lot you can do to make it work. Best get in touch with your training manager and explain why you think you need a new sim parter to avoid training failures. But if they're willing to put forth the effort required OUTSIDE of designated training periods, then get off this board and sit down with them and practice the callouts and flows until you both have it perfect. It doesn't require a sim, just sit down in a couple of chairs in front of posters or whatever and chairfly. If you can get in the box and sit down at the actual set of controls, then even better (but this wasn't an option for us). It's not rocket science--it just takes practice.

[greaper007]

I was in nearly the same place for my sim partner during initial training. It sounds like you guys just really need to work on the paper tiger and get your call-outs and flows in order. If he has admitted to dragging you down in the sim then I would venture to say that he has a good attitude about studying. Put in at least the amount of time on the CPT that you do in the sim and I bet you'll see some dramatic improvements.

If this doesn't work the only other solution is to switch sim partners. This is what happened with my sim partner and I. He just didn't feel like he needed to put in as much time on the CPT and profiles as I thought necessary. Once I switched partners it was like night and day. I still struggled but we got through the difficulties together. We both ended up passing our initial training as a result.

Whatever your decision I'd suggest making it soon. The sim sessions go pretty quickly and you don't want to be doing a check ride with an anchor tied around your neck. If you decide to keep him or drop him I'd suggest talking to both your partner and your instructor. Remember you guys are a reflection of your instructor. He doesn't want to see you fail anymore than you don't want to fail.

Good Luck

[EDUC8-or]

Boy, the mentality has certainly changed in the few short years I've worked at the airlines. It used to be "You Sink or Swim Together." Now it's "My Partner Is Screwing Me Over!"

Have you tried helping him? Chair flying going through procedures and callouts when you're not in the sim? When I say chair fly it sound like he needs to pretend there's an FCP in front of him so he can hunt and peck so he hits the right button when cleared for the approach, etc... Is there an FMS trainer you could use and show him how things work? If he's that weak you should really be helping him out. The more you help him out outside of the sim the more time your instructor will be able to focus on you when it's your turn to fly.

I teach in the sim at a certain airline and I see quite a few situations like this with the new hires. Many of them will say they can't work with their partner because they don't get along. Well, if you can't work with a partner who seems fairly reasonable you're going to have REAL problems with an old crusty Captain who is very difficult. I see guys who don't work together at all and they will have poor attitudes in the sim. I've seen them get into arguments in the sim and become visibly frustrated with each other. I never lose any sleep when I recommend someone with a poor attitude like that be terminated. You could possibly already be helping him, but from the looks of your post that's pretty hard to determine.

No matter HOW FRUSTRATED you become with your partner it's important to have patience and don't show that frustration. If all else fails and he doesn't improve after your help you should BOTH discuss the issues during a debrief. Let your partner know you think it should be discussed with your instructor so he's not blindsided and go from there.

I know this is getting long, but I'll tell you a story. When I went through initial training we were assigned partners. My partner and I were pretty much exact opposites, and he was the last person I would have picked to pair up with. As we progressed though training, we became good friends. If someone was weak in one area we didn't move on until we had it down pat. When one of us would have a rough day in the sim the other always offered encouraging words. I'd say it got to the point where if he would have busted the PC I would have been more upset than if I had busted and vice-versa. That's how things should be.

[Snuggle]

Agree with what is posted above about talking to him. You need to work it out. You really don't seem to have any other option in this situation. During my initial training my sim partner and I had our differences. We sat down to talk it out and settled it. Instead of being mad at each others mistakes we found ourselves studying together and helping each other out. Everything went smooth after that and the result was a ''flawless checkride''. (quoting the examiner)

[B767Driver]

This post illustrates that the most important component of a crew flown airplane...is the "non-flying pilot". The flying pilot should have the easiest job...fly the airplane...and do nothing else but fly the airplane.

The non flying pilot essentially sets up the play for the flying pilot. If you are on a 2 on 1 fast break and he throws the ball over your head and out of bounds...it doesn't matter if you are MJ. He just turned the ball over and you both pay for it.

However, if you have a weak teammate...you must use more fully use your own talents. You must ensure that not only are you doing your job...but that he's doing his job as well...and make sure that "you have the ball in the final seconds of the game".

That means you need to make sure that checklists are done, radios are tuned, the FMS is set, ATC has you in a good position for the approach, and there should be no verbal communication occurring except for required and standard callouts. (Play by play and extraneous talk, IMO, display a very amateurish operation.)

As you can see...a weak crewmember...increases workload.

[Duck_Twacy]

Originally Posted by EDUC8-or

No matter HOW FRUSTRATED you become with your partner it's important to have patience and don't show that frustration.

Yet another reason to flight instruct before going to the next level, you get LOTS of practice at this

Interestingly enough, our "token old guy" instructor is a retired airline captain and former sim instructor, and his advice to me was that if I get an ate-up sim partner to request another one.

I tend to agree with EDUC8-or, at least give it a chance. Sounds like a couple of sessions in front of the CPT just the two of you could go a long way. If, as was already mentioned, he acknowledges his shortcomings, he is probably actually asking for help.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by EDUC8-or

Boy, the mentality has certainly changed in the few short years I've worked at the airlines. It used to be "You Sink or Swim Together." Now it's "My Partner Is Screwing Me Over!"

Have you tried helping him? Chair flying going through procedures and callouts when you're not in the sim? When I say chair fly it sound like he needs to pretend there's an FCP in front of him so he can hunt and peck so he hits the right button when cleared for the approach, etc... Is there an FMS trainer you could use and show him how things work? If he's that weak you should really be helping him out. The more you help him out outside of the sim the more time your instructor will be able to focus on you when it's your turn to fly.

I teach in the sim at a certain airline and I see quite a few situations like this with the new hires. Many of them will say they can't work with their partner because they don't get along. Well, if you can't work with a partner who seems fairly reasonable you're going to have REAL problems with an old crusty Captain who is very difficult. I see guys who don't work together at all and they will have poor attitudes in the sim. I've seen them get into arguments in the sim and become visibly frustrated with each other. I never lose any sleep when I recommend someone with a poor attitude like that be terminated. You could possibly already be helping him, but from the looks of your post that's pretty hard to determine.

No matter HOW FRUSTRATED you become with your partner it's important to have patience and don't show that frustration. If all else fails and he doesn't improve after your help you should BOTH discuss the issues during a debrief. Let your partner know you think it should be discussed with your instructor so he's not blindsided and go from there.

I know this is getting long, but I'll tell you a story. When I went through initial training we were assigned partners. My partner and I were pretty much exact opposites, and he was the last person I would have picked to pair up with. As we progressed though training, we became good friends. If someone was weak in one area we didn't move on until we had it down pat. When one of us would have a rough day in the sim the other always offered encouraging words. I'd say it got to the point where if he would have busted the PC I would have been more upset than if I had busted and vice-versa. That's how things should be.

TAKE THIS ADVICE ABOVE AND LOOK INTO IT! You are a team..... if you cant swim together perhaps you will sink.... Honestly man chill.... you seem just through this tread alone to be very hostile about this situation! YOU are only on SIM 2! I dont know what airline you are at but by no means is sim 2 suppose to be perfect! Chill, relax, enjoy the sim. this should be FUN! Anyways seriously take Jeremy's advice to heart.... The dude knows what he's talking about....

[deadstick]

Originally Posted by EDUC8-or

Boy, the mentality has certainly changed in the few short years I've worked at the airlines. It used to be "You Sink or Swim Together." Now it's "My Partner Is Screwing Me Over!"

This entire post is spot on. I just want to focus on this last part.

Get over it, bud. You are in the box for 4 hrs a day, de/brief take another 2 or so, you can sleep for 6 or so (you can catch up on sleep on reserve). What are you doing with the remaining 12 hrs? Watching tv? Surfing the web and message boards? It seems like it would be more beneficial for BOTH of you to sit at the paper tiger and go through this stuff. Don't people learn while they teach? Couldn't this help YOU be better, too, AND help your sim buddy? Many times, folks are flying from the lav until Sim 5 or 6, and THEN things click. You have to lose the "poor me" attitude and get the job done.

If you are more proficient right now, be a leader and help out.


With that said, I'll get off my soap box, now.

Dismissed.

[Van_Hoolio]

Sounds like a convenient time to get "sick" for a couple days. If you're lucky, they'll pair him up with someone else when your gone, and the problem might resolve itself by the time you get back.

[Capt. Caucasian]

At SouthernJets if you don't feel you are getting the level of training that you deserve for whatever reason you are free to request a new instructor or partner or whatever.

A similar thing was happening to me during my sims here. My partner was an F-16 guy who had never seen the level of automation that a airliner has nor had he any concept of the "crew". Great guy though. I knew he would struggle a lot more than me (this was my fourth big jet) so I helped as much as the instructors would let me. The training department bigwigs even asked me if I wanted to train independently so I could get equal time. I felt I was doing just fine so I declined the offer. However, if at any time I thought I was missing out I would have taken the chance for more training.

So, if at any time you think your performance is suffering because of "external" factors it is your responsibility to let your superiors know. This is not a new concept and is quite common. When you take your checkride your check airman should ask if there is anything in your life that would cause you not to preform to your highest level. Being really, really nervous doesn't count .

[kellwolf]

Ditto everything Educ8-or said. If they had to pass/fail me based on my performance on sim 2 in initial, I'd be flipping burgers right now. At least at my airline, as long as your trying, making progress and have a good attitude, you'll go through to the next level. If you're fighting with your sim partner or otherwise obviously not working as a crew, you might have a problem. Like was mentioned, it's a crew training environment. They want to see how you can work with someone that's not just like you. Here's your opportunity to shine in that department. Take the guy aside and tell him what's going on. Don't be confrontational about it. You can sorta trick him into it, too. Say YOU'RE having a problem in something he's having a problem in and you want to go over it in either a CPT, in front of a poster or in just two chairs next to each other. Keeping going over it until HE'S got it down. You never know. He might know what's going on, but he's too shy or embarassed to bring it up himself.

[jynxyjoe]

I think I'll just echo most of the above, but I'll work in a Bad Boy's movie quote, "You ride together you die together."

Work it out.

[Clocks]

Study flows and callouts with him. There's a 100% chance you could also benefit from running through them more outside of training.

In the sim you are being judged on how well you work together, you aren't being judged on how capable the other guy is. This means you need to: 1. Know everything you need to know. 2. Be able to work with the other person.

If you know your stuff then it shouldn't be a big deal to very gently and politely cue him also. When he is PF and it's getting obvious that he forgot to call for a checklist, reach for the checklist and put it on your lap. If he doesn't pick up on it a polite "Are you ready for the approach checklist?". Just make sure you give him some time to "catch up" to the plane and don't be riding your sim partner like everything has to be done at the EXACT MOMENT is says on the profile. There's not much more you can be doing in a training session. The sim instructor will see what is going on.

If you sim partner is really terrible the instructor might be giving him some extra time to evaluate if he is even going to stay with the company. Take this as an opportunity to study with him outside of training and also as an opportunity to work on your own situational awareness when you are in the sim watching everything he is supposed to be doing too. But seriously, you get pissed in the sim at him, or start playing the whole "blame everyone else" game, you're gone. The only way your sim partner can "drag you down" is if you let him affect your attitude.

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by Capt. Caucasian

At SouthernJets if you don't feel you are getting the level of training that you deserve for whatever reason you are free to request a new instructor or partner or whatever.

A similar thing was happening to me during my sims here. My partner was an F-16 guy who had never seen the level of automation that a airliner has nor had he any concept of the "crew". Great guy though. I knew he would struggle a lot more than me (this was my fourth big jet) so I helped as much as the instructors would let me. The training department bigwigs even asked me if I wanted to train independently so I could get equal time. I felt I was doing just fine so I declined the offer. However, if at any time I thought I was missing out I would have taken the chance for more training.

So, if at any time you think your performance is suffering because of "external" factors it is your responsibility to let your superiors know. This is not a new concept and is quite common. When you take your checkride your check airman should ask if there is anything in your life that would cause you not to preform to your highest level. Being really, really nervous doesn't count .

doug does the same thing....when you're in the cockpit, no matter who you're flying with, you should be in a "team" mode. not doing the other pilots job but helping when it's needed.

best bet might be like other say...do some hotel chair flying and get those callouts down pat so there's no doubt that you both will pass and go onto the next stage.

[Copperhed51]

Thanks for the replies everybody. For the record, I get along with the guy great. I'm trying to do everything I can during the sim to help him recognize he needs to call for something, but he's often so incredibly focused on flying that he can't do anything else. We've been meeting a couple hours early every day at the paper tigers to go through profiles and callouts and he does alright then, but not perfect. Again, I'm far from perfect as well. He said he's planning on showing up at the training center early this morning and is going to spend most of the day there on the fms trainer and i'll go in a bit and we'll chairfly for a while.

I'm thinking that the hardest part of this training is going to be making sure I get my partner up to speed. If I focus on trying to teach him everything, then I'm bound to learn everything that much better. My concern is that some people just don't have what it takes and need more experience before they're ready for this. I just hope he's not one of those guys. It's weird, I thought he was smarter than me in ground school and has more flight time than me. He's flight instructed a bunch and I never have. I was pretty sure I'd be the one falling behind. I just never expected to have this problem. Oh well, I do...time to deal with it.

[Airdale]

I'm sorry to say, but on SIM#1 you should have your callouts, flows and procedures down pat, nailed nearly perfectly. Thats why we do CPT's BEFORE sim. To spend less time going over callouts and procedures and more time spent flying and dealing with situations.

Sounds like both of you guys need to sit in front of the paper tiger and do some serious practice.

I'm in Sim #5 right now and when we did Sim #1, it was basic procedures and normal operations along with some airwork. My sim partner and I had been practicing flows and callouts from the 2nd week of systems training and when we did our first sim, our callouts and flows were perfect. That allows you the opportunity to focus on flying and learning the airplane. By sim 3 we were doing V1 cuts, single engine approaches and rejected takeoffs.

If you and your sim partner don't get the basic stuff down, you're going to be in trouble when the heat gets turned up. Drag your partners butt in front of a CPT for a few hours and continually go through the callouts and flows so that they come naturally.

[gtpilot]

Originally Posted by Airdale

I'm sorry to say, but on SIM#1 you should have your callouts, flows and procedures down pat, nailed nearly perfectly. Thats why we do CPT's BEFORE sim. To spend less time going over callouts and procedures and more time spent flying and dealing with situations.

For whatever reason, CPT in the paper tiger just did not translate for my partner and I when we got into the sim. I've heard several other trainees have similar difficulties. For me, I can't mentally wrap my head around how something works until I see it in action. I personally struggled with simple procedures and callouts until after sim 3 when it all fell together.

Copperhed51 - sounds like you're on the right track now. It really bugs me that my sim partner was canned before the check ride because we put in a lot of extra time chair flying to get procedures down and he was getting it, jut not perfectly. If I had hung him out to dry, I would have suffered as well, I think.

[ClearedForOption]

Just a couple of words of advice: talk to your instructor. Make sure that you are in the groove for passing - just ask him, "am I where I need to be?"

Let him know that you and your partner are working together on getting better... let him see that you are there early every day working on the paper tiger with the callouts/flows/etc. But, also let him know about your fears - that his performance is worrying you and why.

I had the same problem... I didn't care for my partner, but I worked with him anyway and studied every day over and over again. Whedn it came to my ride - they paired me up with an instructor as my captain and another check airman gave the ride. I did fine.

[SlantG]

http://aviation.crosswindlanding.com...ingthegame.htm

"Your only goal during training is to get your training partner through successfully."

Fortunately, my sim partner during intial had the same idea and we spent many hours together during systems, FTDs, and the sim. When one of us was having a horrid time flying, we still gave it our best when not flying. I know my partner carried me a little, and I did the same for him. One instructor got on our case for too many hints, and the next one got on our case for not enough, as we weren't captains-in-training.

What I found, when flying, make your own callouts if you have to, especially on progress checks and checkrides. Perhaps ask the instructor if you can pull the power back and slow, or put the sim on pause while your partner struggles with a PNF duty.

Good luck!

[Copperhed51]

I don't know what happened in the last 24 hours, but my partner was like a completely different person today. He was right there on most of his callouts, did the PNF duties as well as I can expect him to and flew as well as I did...maybe even a little better. Suddenly I'm feeling a whole lot better about this whole sim thing. It's actually pretty fun once you start figuring some things out. Anyway, hopefully we both continue to improve and are ready to go come checkride time. Thanks again for the responses.

[germb747]

Good deal--24 hours can make a huge difference in this environment; glad it seems like things are starting to click with him and you can both move on to the next phase of training. Everyone's learning curve is different--just because you start out sucking doesn't mean you end up that way.

And I assume this is probably your first jet job, yes? I have news for you--once you get out on in the real world, you'll find out the actual jet is a much different animal than the sim. Granted you won't have engine fires every day, you will be humbled the first time you fly into a place like Kennedy. The first time I stepped into a real jet, a T-1 (BE400), when we were descending on the STAR my brain was still back in the chocks. Keep us updated as you get on the line, because even though the jet is easier to fly than the sim, I think you'll find there's another steep learning curve when you get away from the 'canned' environment you probably see in the sim.

Not to get you thinking too far ahead--you have to take it one step at a time and get past your PC before you'll even be allowed near the jet, so focus on the next priority of getting both of you through the next sim and then onto the next one, one day at a time. Good luck!

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by Copperhed51

I don't know what happened in the last 24 hours, but my partner was like a completely different person today. He was right there on most of his callouts, did the PNF duties as well as I can expect him to and flew as well as I did...maybe even a little better. Suddenly I'm feeling a whole lot better about this whole sim thing. It's actually pretty fun once you start figuring some things out. Anyway, hopefully we both continue to improve and are ready to go come checkride time. Thanks again for the responses.

I saw a lot of people in sims that would suck until somewhere halfway through their sims, then something suddenly clicked and they took off like a rocket ship, nailing everything I could possibly throw at them.

[KLB]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I saw a lot of people in sims that would suck until somewhere halfway through their sims, then something suddenly clicked and they took off like a rocket ship, nailing everything I could possibly throw at them.

Dang you Jtrain,
I'd wish you'd stop putting my business on a public forum!

[rjmore]

Originally Posted by Copperhed51

I don't know what happened in the last 24 hours, but my partner was like a completely different person today. He was right there on most of his callouts, did the PNF duties as well as I can expect him to and flew as well as I did...maybe even a little better. Suddenly I'm feeling a whole lot better about this whole sim thing. It's actually pretty fun once you start figuring some things out. Anyway, hopefully we both continue to improve and are ready to go come checkride time. Thanks again for the responses.

This is not uncommon at all. He knew the callouts etc. from the sounds of it but he was getting task saturated. The new airplane and automation may have been overwhelming at first but now his tunnel vision is clearing up. People learn at different paces and you'll find this throughout your career. One day everything will just click. In my last training cycle my partner and I were not quite on the same level. He had the callouts flat out but was stugling with landings and handling. I was the other way, I could fly the airplane but was fumbling the callouts (at my company the callouts are a bit much but it is the way they want it). By sim 4 we came together to where my callouts were cleaned up and his handling cleaned up.

Good luck with the rest!