Colgan Scope Arbitration

[JBUCREW]

Word from ALPA is that the final award has been reached and it could be announced today and the full details to be available next week. They say the final award is very favorable for ALPA.
This sounds like there many not be very many more Q's showing up at Colgan, but lets see what it says.

[v1valarob]

Originally Posted by JBUCREW

Word from ALPA is that the final award has been reached and it could be announced today and the full details to be available next week. They say the final award is very favorable for ALPA.
This sounds like there many not be very many more Q's showing up at Colgan, but lets see what it says.

Why would Qs not show up for Colgan? Its my understanding that after the ruling Pinnacle pilots can bid the Q if they please.

-Rob

[jtrain609]

How can they bid it if they're on a seperate certificate with a seperate seniority list?

Get your staple gun out!

[v1valarob]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

How can they bid it if they're on a seperate certificate with a seperate seniority list?

Get your staple gun out!

Well thats what I am saying. After the ruling the lists are put together. Meaning Pinnacle pilots can bid on the Q. Or does it not work like that?

-Rob

[jtrain609]

My guess? The arbitrator will say, "The Pinnacle scope clause says they need to be operated by Pinnacle pilots, so fix it." The easiest fix (and thus, the fix Colgan will go after) will be stapling the Colgan pilot group to the bottom of the Pinnacle list.

THEN we've got ourselves a nice little cluster. Colgan captains will be junior to Pinnacle FO's. Pinnacle FO's who live in the New York area will move over to the Colgan side, take the upgrade slots and Colgan captains will be junior manned to Detroit, pulling gear on CRJ's while doing high speeds to Saginaw, Traverse City, Kalamazoo and Houghton.

Enjoy!

[v1valarob]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

My guess? The arbitrator will say, "The Pinnacle scope clause says they need to be operated by Pinnacle pilots, so fix it." The easiest fix (and thus, the fix Colgan will go after) will be stapling the Colgan pilot group to the bottom of the Pinnacle list.

THEN we've got ourselves a nice little cluster. Colgan captains will be junior to Pinnacle FO's. Pinnacle FO's who live in the New York area will move over to the Colgan side, take the upgrade slots and Colgan captains will be junior manned to Detroit, pulling gear on CRJ's while doing high speeds to Saginaw, Traverse City, Kalamazoo and Houghton.

Enjoy!

Wow. Sounds kinda ####ed up.

-Rob

[Seggy]

v1valarob, no it is not ####ed up. If we voted ALPA in, there would be no scope grievance, we as Colgan Pilots as part of ALPA would be negotiating how we would handle our seniority issues.

John I can guarantee you it will NOT be a pure staple. Worst case for the Colgan pilots is we lose our Colgan date of hire. Instead of a 10/10/2005 hire date I would be given a 1/17/2007 (the day we were bought) DOH. Those hired after 1/17/2007 would be given their respective date of hire.

Once again that would be worse case. Honestly, I think we are all going to end up, percentage wise, in the seniority list in a very similar seniority position relative to percentage.

Then after that fences would be put up and/or there would be a bid for the aircraft. Those who are captains at Colgan today are probably going to be ok. A few might be bumped out of the Q.

Honestly, who knows what is going to happen. It is going to be an interesting week!

[JBUCREW]

Originally Posted by Seggy

v1valarob, no it is not ####ed up. If we voted ALPA in, there would be no scope grievance, we as Colgan Pilots as part of ALPA would be negotiating how we would handle our seniority issues.

John I can guarantee you it will NOT be a pure staple. Worst case for the Colgan pilots is we lose our Colgan date of hire. Instead of a 10/10/2005 hire date I would be given a 1/17/2007 (the day we were bought) DOH. Those hired after 1/17/2007 would be given their respective date of hire.

Once again that would be worse case. Honestly, I think we are all going to end up, percentage wise, in the seniority list in a very similar seniority position relative to percentage.

Then after that fences would be put up and/or there would be a bid for the aircraft. Those who are captains at Colgan today are probably going to be ok. A few might be bumped out of the Q.

Honestly, who knows what is going to happen. It is going to be an interesting week!

When I say no more Q's I mean no more for Colgan... but for Pinnacle yes.
Kind of a joke..
Seggy is pretty much right on target. Except no one is sure how the merge will go... it could on a small chance be a pure staple, but I side more with Seggy on this one. Before they put up the fences they will open all the aircraft up for bid, which for alot of junior Colgan guys is gonna put you in DTW or MSP. We have a lot of guys who live on the eastcoast that have been here for a while that will take those Q spots from you guys.
We keep hearing more and more about UAL flying with the Q out of DEN/SFO which many of our MSP guys and girls would jump on.
Just think of how Republic does it with fences, that how I think its gonna work here.

[AP2B]

Originally Posted by Seggy

John I can guarantee you it will NOT be a pure staple. Worst case for the Colgan pilots is we lose our Colgan date of hire. Instead of a 10/10/2005 hire date I would be given a 1/17/2007 (the day we were bought) DOH. Those hired after 1/17/2007 would be given their respective date of hire.

Does a standard formula exist for determining what your seniority would be if it's not based on DOH? What's this percentage you speak of?

[v1valarob]

Originally Posted by Seggy

v1valarob, no it is not ####ed up.

I mean the whole situation in general.

-Rob

[hawkiwa]

I have an interview with Colgan next week. I wonder where this puts me. Should I plan on it being canceled?

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by AP2B

Does a standard formula exist for determining what your seniority would be if it's not based on DOH? What's this percentage you speak of?

The percentage I speak of is this, I am in the top 45% seniority wise here at Colgan. They merge the list, I will be in the top 45% of the combined list. They will then put fences up so I can't bid over to PNCL and a PNCL guy can't bid over to us. Once again, this is how I think the cookie will crumble.

Originally Posted by v1valarob

I mean the whole situation in general.

-Rob

It really didn't have to be, if we voted ALPA in, it would have been much cleaner.

Originally Posted by hawkiwa

I have an interview with Colgan next week. I wonder where this puts me. Should I plan on it being canceled?

This will have no effect on you. Both companies need pilots badly.

[Snuggle]

There was a saab Fo in my new hire class who went over to pinnacle. I guess now well find out if he made a smart move or not. He may either have moved up or down in seniority overall ha.

[Airdale]

This should be interesting. I hope all the Colgan guys who didn't vote, get based so far away from where they live, a letter takes 5 days to make it home. Oh and outstation bases, GONE within a few months I predict!


"We don't need a Union! Colgan is a family company and besides, I'm home every night!"

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Airdale

This should be interesting. I hope all the Colgan guys who didn't vote, get based so far away from where they live, a letter takes 5 days to make it home. Oh and outstation bases, GONE within a few months I predict!


"We don't need a Union! Colgan is a family company and besides, I'm home every night!"

Honestly, the only way that happens is with a staple. I know a lot of JC people are Colganites, and I like you guys (the JC-Colganites, not the no voters), but a staple might actually show that ALPA has some chest hair. It might convince another regional that in this buyout deal, it may be best to have that union protection.

I don't want to say I "hope" it happens, but if it happens, at least there could be some potentially good coming out of it. Even though it throws you guys under the bus

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Honestly, the only way that happens is with a staple. I know a lot of JC people are Colganites, and I like you guys (the JC-Colganites, not the no voters), but a staple might actually show that ALPA has some chest hair. It might convince another regional that in this buyout deal, it may be best to have that union protection.

I don't want to say I "hope" it happens, but if it happens, at least there could be some potentially good coming out of it. Even though it throws you guys under the bus

Oh I agree. I hope the best for my Colgan friends. Especially those guys that really fought a hard fight for ALPA. If they get screwed on this deal, then that really is the icing on the cake, rub it in your face defeat. The ones who had the attitude I mentioned above, I hope they get an education on what happens when you have no legal representation.

[BobDDuck]

Damn... there's me agreeing with Chris again. I've got to stop this.

[OldComputerGuy]

Originally Posted by hawkiwa

I have an interview with Colgan next week. I wonder where this puts me. Should I plan on it being canceled?

Probably not cancelled, but it may affect what aircraft you end up with.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Damn... there's me agreeing with Chris again. I've got to stop this.

I'm fairly agreeable in all actuality. Unlike most, I'm rational

[greaper007]

So whats the deal seg, I'm just about #10 FO at the company now seniority wise. I'm just waiting for a thousand in type to upgrade. If the list gets merged am I now stuck at the top of the FO list for another year? If so this f'ing sucks, and you know that I voted for the union (and was successful in getting very anti-union Captain's pro-union).

[higney85]

I have just a couple thoughts on all this "merger" discussion. Keep in mind that our mgmt (9E) bought colgan (now 9L) and the mgmt team wanted to keep both sides seperate (so they say). Obviously it appears its a seperation of jet and prop. If the arbitration comes back in ALPA's favor (which appears to be the case) mgmt will simply be very upset. As far as mgmt is concerned they don't care much how the lists are merged at that point. They are not stupid, although many times I feel they are rarely in touch with reality. If they did a "staple" how bad would attrition be- OMFG bad! Instead they may "Staple" in overall seniority but they will have to keep fences and a "somewhat fair" longevity ruling because if you take a SF340 colgan CA and tell him you are now #1415 in overall seniority with a group of 250 hour wonders more senior and we are starting you over at first year pay he will most likely say FU and leave. Fences would allow for his OVERALL seniority to be stapled to a master seniority list, yet he is still a SF340 CA and (for example) I could not come in as a 9E FO and upgrade on the saab and be FAR senior to him. I will not start guessing how an integration would work but I would imagine DOH longevity remains, overall seniority would be done by either DOH, percentage, 2:1, or maybe a dart board. I would be very surprised if there are not fences/seat locks and hiring will be done to EITHER the 9L side or the 9E side. Nobody at 9E wants to see our colgan brothers and sisters striped of all they have worked for. I could see ALPA taking care of this list "merger" and try to be fair. What I will be eager to see and I would EXPECT that all colgan guys DO join ALPA when they come to an ALPA list. I guarantee it would be very difficult for someone who came over as a colgan FO, took my upgrade in a 9E vacancy and smarted off to me about not even joining ALPA and taking my upgrade- fences, seat locks, and a seniority merge would make that situation impossible and everyone stays happy (relatively).

For those who are not a colgan or pinnacle reading this there is a single point to understand. Colgan pilots did not ask to get bought, those at Colgan went there because they wanted to. If they wanted to fly pinnacle jets they would have interviewed at 9E and been hired.

[beechpilot]

Originally Posted by Airdale

This should be interesting. I hope all the Colgan guys who didn't vote, get based so far away from where they live, a letter takes 5 days to make it home. Oh and outstation bases, GONE within a few months I predict!


"We don't need a Union! Colgan is a family company and besides, I'm home every night!"

I believe you're right. I was reading that due to their 2007 losses, Pinnacle planned to look hard at the structure of the Colgan structure including their EAS routes. I take that to mean they will dissapear.

[Cruise]

I guarantee this SF340 CA *WILL* say FU if I wind up at the bottom of a list yanking gear. The good thing is, it doesn't sound like that's going to happen. I've been promoting ALPA since day one of this whole purchase nonsense. It's unfortunate the vote didn't pass the first time around.

[Seggy]

Guys I really don't think we have anything to worry about.

Like I said, worse case scenario we get a 1/17/2007 DOH but will be protected in our seat with fences. More likely we will get a percentage type integration with fences.

[Cruise]

Yep, like I said above, it doesn't sound like the staple is going to happen.....and that's a good thing!