Alcohol rules

[Clocks]

I'm a pretty irregular drinker, but as my reserve days now include every weekend I want to clear up a question that I have received different answers to depending on who I ask.

Company policy is 12 hours from consuming alcohol to "acting as a flight crew member".

-Does "acting as a flight crew member" begin at the beginning of my call-out period? (I've heard this answer)

-Does it begin when I show up to the airport (in theory the earliest that can happen is 2 hours after my callout period begins) (I've heard this answer also)

-Or does it begin when we release the brake? (This I haven't heard yet, I'm just throwing it out there)

-And to add to this, when does "acting as a flight crew member" begin after an overnight (I'd assume show time)?

I'm not asking this because I want to push it to the last minute every night while I get my drink on. I just want to get this 100% clarified so I'm never in a position where I accidentally "pushed it".

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by Clocks

I'm a pretty irregular drinker, but as my reserve days now include every weekend I want to clear up a question that I have received different answers to depending on who I ask.

Company policy is 12 hours from consuming alcohol to "acting as a flight crew member".

-Does "acting as a flight crew member" begin at the beginning of my call-out period? (I've heard this answer)

-Does it begin when I show up to the airport (in theory the earliest that can happen is 2 hours after my callout period begins) (I've heard this answer also)

-Or does it begin when we release the brake? (This I haven't heard yet, I'm just throwing it out there)

-And to add to this, when does "acting as a flight crew member" begin after an overnight (I'd assume show time)?

I'm not asking this because I want to push it to the last minute every night while I get my drink on. I just want to get this 100% clarified so I'm never in a position where I accidentally "pushed it".

If you're on reserve, I'd say the 12hr period starts 12hrs prior to your reserve availibility period. Someone may argue, but I wouldn't think about pushing it. As for overnights, it starts 12hrs prior to your show time.

[EDUC8-or]

Uh oh, I predict a lecture coming. I'll let someone else take care of that.

12 hours prior to your duty time. Reserve periods are considered duty. (In my best Beavis voice) "I just said duty, yeah yeah."

[inside0ut]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

If you're on reserve, I'd say the 12hr period starts 12hrs prior to your reserve availibility period. Someone may argue, but I wouldn't think about pushing it. As for overnights, it starts 12hrs prior to your show time.

Yeah that. Some guys have said it starts an 1 1/2 hours into reserve since thats your callout(whatever) put do ya really have to push it that far?

[jynxyjoe]

Wait. Is it 12 inches or hours bottle to throttle? Jeesh i gotta crack open those books someday.

[OldTownPilot]

Yes it does.

[dakovich]

"yes it does"


beat me to it

[Alchemy]

Yes, as soon as your callout time starts you are considered "on duty". At most regionals that will mean you cannot drink at all on your on-call days since you will be phone liable for 15 to 16 hours of the day (unless successfully attempt to be released to domicile rest early in the day).

During trips duty time begins at show time each morning (or afternoon, evening, whatever), and ends at the end of your "Debrief" (15 minutes after block in at my airline).

Bottom line is just adhere to the FOM and use common sense.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

Yes, as soon as your callout time starts you are considered "on duty". At most regionals that will mean you cannot drink at all on your on-call days since you will be phone liable for 15 to 16 hours of the day (unless successfully attempt to be released to domicile rest early in the day).

During trips duty time begins at show time each morning (or afternoon, evening, whatever), and ends at the end of your "Debrief" (15 minutes after block in at my airline).

Bottom line is just adhere to the FOM and use common sense.

Correct.

And DO NOT report for duty with a traceable amount of alcohol in your system.

Remember the FAA BAC limit, 8-hour FAA rule and your companies 12-hour rule (man, that's harsh!) are mutally exclusive.

[madmax]

Originally Posted by Clocks

Or does it begin when we release the brake? (This I haven't heard yet, I'm just throwing it out there)

Isn't that the argument that the America West Pilots used when they were drunk in the cockpit? The plane had not been released from tug, and thusly they were not in violation.

"The defense contended that the order to return the plane to the terminal was issued before the plane was released from the tug. They argued that there was no steering at the time, and therefore the pilots were never in control of the plane. The defense called only one witness, tug operator Franklin Tejeda, who said that he never relinquished control of the plane since there was a steel rod attached to the nose wheel"

When it comes to your job/love you should be as conservative as possible.

[SoCalAprch]

Don't push it is the best advice anyone can give. However reserve is not considered rest nor is it considered duty. Say your reserve window is from 8:00 am till 8:00 pm. If they called you right at 8:00 am the earliest that you could possibly be there is 9:30 am. I think your duty time starts at 9:30 am. Therefore twelve hours prior would be 9:30 pm the previous night. You are off at 8:00pm and have an hour and a half to have a beer. Thats how a few of my captains explained it but they also said that the company could probably interpret it anyway they wanted to... So be responsible. And don't be out drinkin with your uniform on or get wasted and brag about being a pilot unless of course you say you work for GoJets!!!

Originally Posted by Alchemy

Yes, as soon as your callout time starts you are considered "on duty".

Where did you find this? I have always thought that it was not considered duty.

From our union: The contract has a "14-hour duty limimtation" with some exceptions (CDOs, deadheads back to base, etc.). This is calculated completely independently of the Whitlow requirements. According to the contract (and applicable only to contract compliance), reserve is not duty, so it therefore does not count against the 14 hour limitation. ...

[Clocks]

Since there is apparently some debate, I'll go with the most conservative position for the 1 night a month I might have a beer (I thought there was a clear-cut obvious answer to this, I now feel less stupid having asked).

Thanks guys.

[Doug Taylor]

What the FAA says:

§ 91.17 Alcohol or drugs.

(a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft—

(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;

(2) While under the influence of alcohol;

(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or

(4) While having an alcohol concentration of 0.04 or greater in a blood or breath specimen. Alcohol concentration means grams of alcohol per deciliter of blood or grams of alcohol per 210 liters of breath.

Basically 8 hours bottle to throttle and a BAC below 0.04.

However, a selected airline says, above and beyond the FAA rule listed in 91.17:

(underlines added by me because they're relevant to the discussion)

It is the responsibility of every pilot to ensure that he never reports for duty with any alcohol in his system. A pilot who violates any alcohol related policy may be subject to disciplinary action, up to and including termination. The following policies pertain to alcohol:

*A pilot will not report for duty, including ground or simulator training, with the presence of any amount of alcohol in his system.

- Any pilot who reports for duty with alcohol in his system will be subject to termination.
- A pilot who is terminated for being on duty with alcohol in his system may, under certain circumstances, be considered for conditional reinstatement at the discretion of the company. However, under no circumstance will any pilot who has crossed the threshold of the aircraft door with alcohol in his system be considered for reinstatement.

*A pilot will not consume any alcohol within eight hours of scheduled sign-in.
*A pilot will not purchase alcohol (except for duty free purchases) or consume alcohol while in uniform.
*A pilot will not have alcohol in his system while in uniform.
*A pilot will not knowingly permit any other crew member to operate an aircraft with alcohol in his system
*A pilot will report for and complete an alcohol test as instructed

Notice, that the "8 hour rule" and having (traceable) amounts of alcohol in your system are treated a little different.

That's why a lot of guys get in trouble.

Trust me, you can stop drinking 8 hours prior to check-in and still have a BAC well over 0.04 BAC (FAA) or a traceable amount (airline dependent).

I would not suggest drinking while sitting reserve before your coverage obligation is over for the day.

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

Where did you find this? I have always thought that it was not considered duty.

From our union: The contract has a "14-hour duty limimtation" with some exceptions (CDOs, deadheads back to base, etc.). This is calculated completely independently of the Whitlow requirements. According to the contract (and applicable only to contract compliance), reserve is not duty, so it therefore does not count against the 14 hour limitation. ...

I can't speak for every airline since I don't know everyone's regs, but the fact that our reserve phone availability time is included in duty time comes straight from our FOM. In your case, perhaps reserve might not be considered duty for some contractual purposes (part 91 flights, etc, notice your quote gives you the disclaimer "applicable only to contract compliance", not FAR's/FOM). I would be very surprised if your company is permitted to exclude the phone liability from a pilot's duty day w/ regard to 121/135 ops.

Straight from our FOM:

Reserve pilots on their first day of a pairing must subtact from the listed CCO the amount of time between the beginning of their phone availability and their show time in order to accurately reflect their duty day when contemplating a departure that might be limited by duty times.

There is no doubt that if a pilot has been phone liable for 11 hours, then given 2 hours notice to report 1 hour prior for a flight 1:30 long, he or she will time out if that flight is delayed 31 minutes (1 minute for the contractual 15.5 hr duty day in our case). If it counts toward your duty time, to me that means you're on duty, and therefore you shouldn't be consuming alcohol nor be under the influence of alcohol.

You should operate under the assumption that you're going to be given a minimum notice callout. I guess you could hypothetically give yourself another 90 minutes or 2 hours depending on your minimum callout length and still be within a "gray area" of legality, but really, if someone is planning to drink enogh that those last 2 hours are going to make a difference, they probably need to rethink their plans.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

I
Straight from our FOM:

Reserve pilots on their first day of a pairing must subtact from the listed CCO the amount of time between the beginning of their phone availability and their show time in order to accurately reflect their duty day when contemplating a departure that might be limited by duty times.

Yeh - but that's just a twisted view of the regulations. There is no such thing as a "duty day", it's just a concept invented for us dumb pilots. There is only a requirement to find lookback rest - from that requirement lot's of people invent a "duty day" concept that doesn't exist.

So the concept that reserve is not duty is not clear and the FAA hasn't really resolved it. The one thing the FAA is rock solid, definately, no question, clear on, is that reserve is NOT rest, and that's the only thing that matters.

If your FOM or contract defines a "duty day" then so be it, and that's a company convention that works for them - but it doesn't apply at any other company.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by Clocks

I'm not asking this because I want to push it to the last minute every night while I get my drink on. I just want to get this 100% clarified so I'm never in a position where I accidentally "pushed it".

Check 121.458. If you want to read this literally then:

- You may not report for "duty" with a BAC of or in excess of 0.04. But there is no mention of of an 8 limitation with respect to to "duty".

- As a "flight crewmember" you have the 8 hour limitation with respect to reporting for "flight crewmember duties", which I would argue is your report time prior to an actual flight (45 minutes, YMMV).

So is reserve "duty"? That's not totally clear. Generally the FAA considers it "not rest" if you are not "free from a present assignment for work" - and so reserve certainly isn't rest, and that's about all the FAA has been real clear on (since generally they don't worry too much about what is duty, they just want to know what is rest).

For 135.253 which says similar things on alcohol the FAA has said that "restrictions regarding on-duty use to not apply to on-call or reserve employees" although of course if called for work they are then required to be able to meet all the requirements. So that would imply that under 121, being on reserve, you do not need to meet any of the alcohol requirements as long as, if called, you will meet them upon report to the aircraft.

So feel free to proffer that defense if it comes to it - I wouldn't, I'd take the most conservative interpretation possible and then some. Of all the reasons to lose a career drugs or alcohol has to be one of the dumbest.

Finally - you say "12 hours", which has nothing to do with the FAA only your company, and since they invented the 12 hour rule they doubtless, in their own tiny little minds, have invented when that applies. That's either clearly defined in your company documentation, or if it isn't then best thing to do is ask, but any of the FAA definitions and opinions are on shaky ground with respect to a "12 hour" rule.

[BobDDuck]

If phone ready reserve isn't considered duty time, then why can't airlines make you sit reserve for more then 6 days straight if they don't fly you at all?

Hmm?

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

Where did you find this? I have always thought that it was not considered duty.

From our union: The contract has a "14-hour duty limimtation" with some exceptions (CDOs, deadheads back to base, etc.). This is calculated completely independently of the Whitlow requirements. According to the contract (and applicable only to contract compliance), reserve is not duty, so it therefore does not count against the 14 hour limitation. ...

Oh, our company loves to use this one to try to get people to fly 17-18 hours after their reserve period started. Part of the problem is we can go all the way up to 15.5 hours of duty per the contract. You're correct, reserve isn't considered "duty" time for rest requirements. HOWEVER, you do still have to have the 8 hours of rest lookback rule. So, if you're reserve period started 16 hours and one minute ago, it's impossible to have 8 hours of rest within 24 (16+8=24). A lot of times you'll get a scheduler trying to push you here with the "reserve isn't duty time" issue, so you have to politely remind them "No, I'm going home b/c you're trying to assing me an illegal trip due to Whitlow rest requirements. Have a good night."

With FAs they like to try re-starting the clock if they call them in from home reserve to sit airport reserve.

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

If phone ready reserve isn't considered duty time, then why can't airlines make you sit reserve for more then 6 days straight if they don't fly you at all?

Hmm?

I think that is per the contract. I don't think the FARs really care how many days straight you sit reserve they just care that you have 8 hours of rest on each of those six days. And what is phone ready reserve?

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

Oh, our company loves to use this one to try to get people to fly 17-18 hours after their reserve period started. Part of the problem is we can go all the way up to 15.5 hours of duty per the contract. You're correct, reserve isn't considered "duty" time for rest requirements. HOWEVER, you do still have to have the 8 hours of rest lookback rule. So, if you're reserve period started 16 hours and one minute ago, it's impossible to have 8 hours of rest within 24 (16+8=24). A lot of times you'll get a scheduler trying to push you here with the "reserve isn't duty time" issue, so you have to politely remind them "No, I'm going home b/c you're trying to assing me an illegal trip due to Whitlow rest requirements. Have a good night."

With FAs they like to try re-starting the clock if they call them in from home reserve to sit airport reserve.

Right I understand that. If your reserve window is from 8:00 am to 8:00 Pm your rest ended at 8:00 am. They call you for a flight and the latest you could possibly fly would be midnight because you look back and see that your required 8 hours of rest started at midnight the following night. But there is nothing that has to do with duty. However we can only be scheduled for 14 hours of duty per our contract. I agree, 8 hours rest is all the FAA is concerened with. But just like if you are holding a line alcohol consumption is 12 hours till you report for duty. The earliest we can report for duty is 90 minutes after the earliest call in. That gives you an hour and a half to have a beer with dinner the previous night. I would never think of pushing it but this is how I interpret the rule.

And for the thread title yes i agree Alcohol does Rule!

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

I would be very surprised if your company is permitted to exclude the phone liability from a pilot's duty day w/ regard to 121/135 ops.

I wouldn't include 135 in there, as sad as it is. Just FYI... 135 REALLY needs a rewrite...between that and the 13 in a calendar quarter, they can use and abuse us.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

If phone ready reserve isn't considered duty time, then why can't airlines make you sit reserve for more then 6 days straight if they don't fly you at all?

Hmm?

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

I think that is per the contract. I don't think the FARs really care how many days straight you sit reserve they just care that you have 8 hours of rest on each of those six days. And what is phone ready reserve?

While this is not 100% directed towards either the alcohol discussion, or the "rest" / "Reserve" period discussion, I find it worthy enough to be placed into this discussion to hopefully give a little insight into a couple areas that are indirectly related to the topic at hand.

Originally Posted by Rest Provisions from FAA Interpretation/Opinion

800 Independence Ave., S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20591


U.S. Department
of Transportation
Federal Aviation
Administration
Dec. 15, 2005



Captn. Michael A. Citrano, Jr.
Senior Director of Operations
Atlas Air, Inc.
2000 Westchester Ave
Purchase, NY 10577-2543

Dear Captain Citrano:

This letter responds to Atlas Air’s April 6, 2005 request for an interpretation of 14 C.F.R. section 121.483(b).[1] The request essentially concerns the nature and applicability of rest provisions in section 121.483(b).

Questions:

1.Does the following statement, which is contained in the Atlas Flight Operations Manual (FOM), have an impact on crew rest, specifically, if a crewmember responds to a company contact, is his or her rest period considered disrupted, thereby requiring additional time for required rest? “During a layover, unless otherwise advised by crew scheduling, the crewmember must be contactable within four (4) hours unless specifically released from this requirement by crew scheduling for a longer period of time.” The scenario given refer[s] to a layover time of 37 hours.

2.How should FAR 121.483(b), specifically the statement: “In any case, he must be given at least 24 consecutive hours of rest during any seven consecutive days” be applied in the following scenario: A crewmember is assigned residence reserve. (A residence reserve[2] crewmember must be available for contact and assignment by the company from 0001z to 2400z on each day that he is assigned residence reserve status. He must be able to report to an airport within 4 hours of notification, and, must call the company within 15 minutes of notification.) Can duty be assigned on Day 9?

3.Can a crewmember be assigned to 3 consecutive days of Residence reserve followed by 4 consecutive days of duty aloft in scheduled air transportation?

4.Is Atlas Air permitted to assign duty aloft on Day 9 [in the following scenario]?
a. Day 1 OFF
b. Day 2 OFF
c. Day 3 Residence reserve
d. Day 4 Residence reserve
e. Day 5 Deadhead to operating airport- crew rest < 24 hours [i.e., less than 24 hours]
f. Day 6 Duty aloft- crew rest < 24 hours
g. Day 7 Duty aloft- crew rest< 24 hours
h. Day 8 Duty aloft- crew rest < 24 hours
i. Day 9 Duty aloft- crew rest < 24 hours

5.Is Atlas Air permitted to deadhead the crewmember to his Base on Day 9 [in the following scenario]?
a. Day 1 OFF
b. Day 2 OFF
c. Day 3 Residence reserve
d. Day 4 Residence reserve
e. Day 5 Deadhead to operating airport- crew rest < 24 hours
f. Day 6 Duty aloft- crew rest < 24 hours
g. Day 7 Duty aloft- crew rest < 24 hours
h. Day 8 Duty aloft-crew rest < 24 hours
i. Day 9 Deadhead return to Base- crew rest < 24 hours

Answer to Question 1:
The nature of rest is the same regardless of the required amount of a particular rest period, whether that rest period be the “daily” rest period, the rest period after having flown 20 or 24 hours, or the 24-consecutive-hour rest period. It must meet the three-prong test, i.e., be: 1) continuous; 2) determined prospectively i.e., known in advance; and 3) free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from work or freedom from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise. Whether the rest period referred to in Question 1 is intended to be a 18-hour rest period after having flown 20 or 24 hours or a 24-consecutive-hour rest period, it would not be a legal rest period if the pilot “must be contactable within four (4) hours,” because it would not meet any of the elements for rest.

Answer to Question 2:
Reserve does not meet the nature of rest test for the 24-consecutive-hour rest period, even if it is Residence reserve, because when a crewmember in such Residence reserve status “must be available for contact and assignment by the company from 0001z to 2400z on each day that he is assigned to a reserve status” he is not “free from all restraint,” which includes “present responsibility for work should the occasion arise.” Assuming the pilot was on Residence reserve on Days 1 through 8, none of those days are 24-consecutive-hour rest periods. Because one must be able to find this rest period when one looks back 7 consecutive days from midnight of the day of any planned Part 121 (or Part 135) operation, the pilot may not perform a flight assignment on Day 9. Instead, he must be given a 24-hour rest period on Day 9, with the assignment to flight time delayed until Day 10. See e.g., July 26, 2005 Letter to James W. Johnson, from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division [2005-7] (copy enclosed).

Answer to Question 3:
No. The 3 consecutive days of Residence reserve do not satisfy the nature of rest test for the 24-consecutive-hour rest period. See previous discussion.

Answer to Question 4:
No. When one looks back 7 days from midnight of the 9th day involving duty aloft, i.e., flight time, one does not find a 24-consecutive-hour rest period because the Residence reserve on Day 3 is not a valid 24-hour rest period. See previous discussion.

Answer to Question 5:
Yes. The certificate holder is permitted to deadhead the crewmember to his Base on Day 9 because in so doing the pilot would not be performing flight time. Note that the days off on Day 1 and 2 (assuming they meet the nature of rest test) would satisfy the 24-hour rest period requirement for flight time performed on Days 6, 7, and 8.
Sincerely,



Rebecca B. MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division, AGC-200

Enclosure


The FAA has not published this interpretation in the Federal Register for pre-issuance comments because it does not present a new issue. This is consistent with the Federal Register Notice of Reinstatement of 1980 Public Comment Procedures for Requests for Interpretation of the Flight Time, Rest and Duty Period Regulations, issued on December 12, 2005. That Notice states that Federal Register public comment procedures would be subject to three limitations: 1) pre-issuance comments would be solicited for requests presenting new issues, i.e., not for repetitive type questions; 2) even for new issues, the agency may issue an interpretation immediately, subject to post-issuance comments; and 3) the Agency reserves the right to modify or discontinue the use of the procedures, at the Office of the Chief Counsel’s election.


[1] Section 121.483(b) states: If a pilot has flown 20 or more hours during any 48 consecutive hours or 24 or more hours during any 72 consecutive hours, he must be given at least 18 hours of rest before being assigned to any duty with the air carrier. In any case, he must be given at least 24 consecutive hours of rest during any seven consecutive days.

[2] Atlas Air fully defines Residence reserve as follows: “Residence reserve, which shall allow the Crewmember to remain at his residence until assigned to a work pattern or re-assigned to another reserve category. The Crewmember must be able to report to the closest jet served airport to his residence for departure within 4 hours of notification of an assignment from the Company. A Residence reserve Crewmember must be available for contact and assignment by the company from 0001z to 2400z on each day that he is assigned to a reserve status. He shall be required to call the Company within 15 minutes of notification by the Company. He may be released from further contactability for the remainder of his work day or other predetermined period based on the needs of the operation as determined by the Company.”
Atlas Air also has another reserve category, Base reserve, that it defines as follows: “Base reserve, which require[s] the Crewmember to remain at his Base (JFK, STN, MIA, LAX or ANC) until either assigned a work pattern or reassigned to another reserve category. He must be able to report to his Base within 2 hours of notification of an assignment by the Company. He shall be required to call the Company within 15 minutes of notification by the Company. He may be released from further contactability for the remainder of his work day or other predetermined period based on the needs of the operation as determined by the Company.”

[Doug Taylor]

Nice.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

I think that is per the contract. I don't think the FARs really care how many days straight you sit reserve they just care that you have 8 hours of rest on each of those six days. And what is phone ready reserve?

Like the article surreal posted, you still need 24 hours free from duty in a 7 day period. Now, it says "free from duty," but it's sorta like the look back in 24 hours in that regard. True, reserve isn't technically duty, but you have to have 24 hours consecutive rest if you look back 7 days. Regardless, if a company had me on reserve 6 days then called me in for a flight on day 7, I'd call in fatigued. It's mental stress enough being on deck next to the phone for 12 hours a day.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

If phone ready re