Airplane for interstate flying

[mrivc211]

Here are the needs:

An airplane that can seat at least 8 people with bags and fuel. It will primarily be used as an interstate hopper from various california cities from San Diego to San Francisco. The average segment will be 200nm. Cruise speed should be no less than 225 kts. The potential owner has businesses located throughout california and needs to be able to fly to any given location(s) in the same day. The reason for the 8 person requirement is for occasional trips with the family. The airplane does not have to be a jet. A turbine powered aircraft is preferred.

Thoughts that come to mind are:

Cessna Grand Caravan
Piper Meridian/malibu
King Air 90

Anyone have any inputs?

As far as costs are concerned, dry cost of the airplane should not exceed $10,000/month. Thats payment/insurance/mx reserve/etc. Fuel is obviously based on a/c usage.

Owner has a corporation and can use the aircraft as a business expense.

[OldTownPilot]

The Piper Malibu series all have 6 total seats including the pilot.

I'd add the PC-12 to your list of possibilities.

[bike21]

+1 for the PC-12 mention. Very capable bird and relatively cheap to operate.

[mnixon]

Caravan ain't even gonna come close to 225.

[Citationkid]

You won't find a PC-12 for under 2.5 million and even then it'll be high time. King Air 90 won't be comfortable for 8 people and has a pretty pathetic useful load (from what I remember). A B200 maybe doable if you a few of those 8 people are light or you are not going far. A Conquest II may also be a consideration, but they have a major AD due in Sept of '08 that will cost around $100,000 and takes two months to do. There is only one currently on the market with the AD complied with, and is selling for over 2 million. If the acquisition cost is not a big deal, the Pilatus or Conquest II would be the two on my list.


Alex.

[SteveC]

"Airplane for intrastate flying"

"Interstate" means between states, and "intrastate" means within a state.

[/GGS]

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by mnixon

Caravan ain't even gonna come close to 225.

Very true.

However - to the original poster - do the math on an average 200NM segment and I think you'll find the Caravan is perfectly competative speed-wise. Now, it's un-pressurised so you're going to be blundering along down low, but again even on something with pressure on a 200NM segment you're not going to be long at cruise anyway. The cabin is much bigger (see no pressurisation) so your buyer might want to check that out to see which they like. A Caravan will be cheaper to acquire and operate (no gear going up and down, no pressure vessel problems etc.).

For the mission you describe I'd take a hard look at the Caravan. PC-12s, King Airs etc. all good options, but don't pass at least considering the Caravan. Now if your buyer has lied to themselves about the mission, and what they really need to do is 400NM+ segments then maybe not, so if they buy a Caravan and find out they want to go longer legs, they're not going to be happy. But that's why they need to figure out he mission first (which the 225+ knots speed issues raises all kinds of red flags about how much thought has been put into this for such short segments).

[DV8Pilot]

Cessna 425 or C441 (The Conquest series) Same $/hr to operate as C90, but much faster (C441 is in the 300kts range IIRC)

[mrivc211]

I havent looked into VLJ's. Do any of these compare in cost to what he's looking for? I know most of them are six seaters like the cirrus one, if he were to go with a vlj, how do the costs compare?

[Kato]

How 'bout the new Kodiak made by Quest Aircraft out of Idaho? Sweet turbo prop 10 place a/c with costs around 1.2 million I think. Built mostly for bush pilots - so I don't know if the comfort aspect is compromised, something to look into. I would have to research the rest of the specifics but it looks like a great aircraft though.

[doug_or]

How many seats does he need for the work missions? How often does he plan to use it for family transport vs. work? If he doesn't need much room for work and the fam won't be riding too often it may make more sense to buy a smaller plane for work and charter when the family needs to go somewhere.

As far as the caravan- the OP said average leg of 200 NM, which I take to mean half of the flights will be longer (perhaps significantly?).

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by doug_or

As far as the caravan- the OP said average leg of 200 NM, which I take to mean half of the flights will be longer (perhaps significantly?).

Average is not the same as median.

But I agree with your overall point, I'm not sure the requirements for this plane are well understood which will ultimately lead to the wrong plane selection.

[Seggy]

I can set you up to buy N221CJ. Have plenty of room to carry 8 and then some!

New engines to!

[Jason]

You can forget the king Air 90...I flew the C90B and the useful load is fine but it's only got 7 seats - 4 pax seats, 2 crew seats, and a belted potty seat. You may find one with a few more seats but it will destroy all of the baggage area. king Air is a great airplane but you need to be in the KA200 as an absolute minimum and if I remember correctly it only has 9 seats counting the cockpit seats. The 300/350 would be a good choice - ours had a double club, belted potty for a total of 11 seats counting crew. Decently fast - around 300 knots but you're getting into some decent money as well.

[mrivc211]

here are some examples of stage lengths.

Routinely he will fly:
SNA-SAN
SNA-SBA
SNA-SFO
SNA-LAS
SNA-OXR
SNA-YUM
SNA-PHX
SNA-TUS
SNA-SGU(building a bigger airport, thank god(no pun intended))

He has business scattered throughout all these cities. He will be traveling alone to them most of the time, and may bring one to two people with him. A Cessna 400 would be ideal, but then the family trips come into play. Occasionally, about once per quarter they will be taking trips according to the season. During the winter to colorado, during the spring to Cabo, sometimes other trips upto northern california.

The reason he wants something fast is because he wants to be able to go to a couple of locations within the same day and be home at night with the kids and wife.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Would it be better to get a plane that can do the business trips required and worse case have to make 2 trips when the entire family needed to go?

[drummerboy]

PC-12 sounds like it would work for the mission. Fast and easy to fly single pilot. If they can afford the initial cost of one I think it would work well. Also has a ton of range if you can fill it up all the way!

[bike21]

BTW - is someone thinking of leaving OO ?

[mnixon]

Originally Posted by mrivc211

The reason he wants something fast is because he wants to be able to go to a couple of locations within the same day and be home at night with the kids and wife.

Then tell him to sack up and get a Jet.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by mnixon

Then tell him to sack up and get a Jet.

Nah, sounds like it's screaming for a Super King Air 200.

Unless you're flying over 90 minutes, jets just piss out a lot of gas in the lower-20's.

[mrivc211]

Can any one these planes be financed for $10,000/month? Thats his budget not including gas. I knkow a PC-12 goes for 3-4 million, so thats probably out of the questions as it would cost around $20,000/month or more. My buddies new cessna 172 was 220K and cost him 1,800/month. Thats roughly 1 million dollars for $10,000 payment.

Used 2005-08 Cessna 400's are running about $500,000. Only problem is no family trips in it.

[aloft]

That's to purchase outright. Your friend ought to look into whether he would be better off leasing or getting into fractional ownership.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by mrivc211

Can any one these planes be financed for $10,000/month? Thats his budget not including gas.

Is his acquistion budget $10,000 a month or is his overall budget $10,000 a month? I know that you know this but there are a bunch of costs associated with owning a "big" airplane like a King Air or PC12 that your friend may or may not have thought about. Training, insurance, and storage alone on a turboprop is going to eat a sizeable amount of that budget if it's $10,000 a month total budget.

[Citationkid]

Originally Posted by mrivc211

Can any one these planes be financed for $10,000/month? Thats his budget not including gas. I knkow a PC-12 goes for 3-4 million, so thats probably out of the questions as it would cost around $20,000/month or more. My buddies new cessna 172 was 220K and cost him 1,800/month. Thats roughly 1 million dollars for $10,000 payment.

Used 2005-08 Cessna 400's are running about $500,000. Only problem is no family trips in it.

If his overall budget before gas is 10k a month he will need a piston. Hangar on a turbine will run about $1000-3000 a month depending on location. Inspections on a King Air will run you $20,000 a year if nothing is wrong and you are only flying 200 hours a year. Any problem and that figure goes way up. The insurance on a King Air with a million hull and liability will be about $16,000 for an average time pilot. If he uses it for business a lot he will probally want more liability and that figure will go up. A pilot will cost him $50,000 a year (and that is a low number for turbine pilot) and that is not including the $7,000 a year recurrent or the hotel and food bills he will have on the road. The bills add up, quick. So far this year we have spent about $3600 on landing fees alone (thank you signature!). And your guy has not even made his first payment on the plane yet!

It sounds like he would be a lot better off buying a Cessna 340 and chartering for the family trips.

Alex.

[WAFlyBoy]

I don't know much about airplane financing, but here's food for thought:

A 10 year note at 7.5% would look something like this:

Amt Financed / Monthly Payment
$850,000 / $10,000
$750,000 / $8,800
$500,000 / $5,900

This is financing only. As mentioned above, there are MANY other expenses associated with owning/operating an aircraft (especially a pressurized cabin-sized aircraft).

I suspect there are certain tax advantages to owning an aircraft for business. (ie depreciation and interest expenses may offset taxable income) This might help the expense of ownership be a little more attractive, but either way he's probably stuck with a piston at the $10,000/month level. (And really, it doesn't sound like that's a problem with the type of flying mentioned.)