FFDO Story. What do you think?

[Doug Taylor]

"Sanitized" and reposted with permission.

This is (was) a controversial topic over on my union's forum, but I think it's good, with all of the identifiable information erased, to post in order to discuss the topic.

It might be a little hard to read because of redacting and such, but let me know what you think.

WARNING: If you post what you guess the airlines in question were, I will delete your post in order to follow the wishes of the party involved.

On (date) boarded (commuter airline) Flight #X.

I was commuting home after finishing my trip for (mainline carrier).

I was assigned seat (redacted) as a Non-Revenue passenger. As I walked onto the aircraft I greeted the two flight attendants, showed them my FFDO Credentials and asked if I could go up to the cockpit.

Flight Attendant (redacted) went into the cockpit, spoke to the Captain then came out to let me enter. I walked in and discretely said, "(redacted) polite and humble (redacted)" To which the Captain replied in a loud and condescending tone "An FFDO, Boy I feel safe now."

Just wanting to go home, I ignored the obvious insult and hoping that no passengers familiar with the term FFDO were on board, I said "thanks guys" turned to take my seat.

The Captains voice was easily heard halfway through the passenger cabin.

As I turned the Captain asked who I was with, to which I replied quietly, "(mainline carrier)"

The Captain, again in a loud and sarcastic manner replied, " Oh great ... " Realizing that many passengers were listening to our conversation and trying to lighten the tone I said, "that sounded sarcastic" to which he replied "it was." I said, "If I've offended you in anyway I apologize", he shook his head no. I commented that "everyone is entitled to their opinion" and took my seat.

As I was exiting the aircraft after arrival, Captain (redacted) followed me onto the Jetway where many passengers were claiming carry-on bags. Again in a loud and accusatory tone he said, " You think you can just walk on here, flash a badge and bring a gun on my airplane?" I walked away from the passengers as far as I could to avoid being overheard and quietly said, " maybe you should review your operations manual. I did everything I was supposed to." He then stepped aggressively towards me and yelled, "you came into my cockpit unannounced with a badge..."

I replied that the flight attendant proceeded me (not even required). I turned to walk on to the aircraft to speak to the flight attendants and to gain more distance from the passengers, the Captain again yelled, "she did not, I've been doing this longer than you have, I've been doing this for 20 years, get off my airplane!" As I turned to leave the Captain stepped in front of me and in an aggressive and threatening posture with his hands alternating between poking his own chest and pointing at mine, leaned into me and said "Do you have a problem with (commuter airline) pilots?"

Realizing the physical instability of the situation I said nothing. I sidestepped him and walked backward up the jetway. Captain (redacted) yelled that his chief pilot has been notified and that I would here about it.
In summary, it was very obvious to me that Captain (redacted) was looking to provoke me into either a physical confrontation or something else that would result in disciplinary action. I did not give him that opportunity.

Twice Captain (redacted) compromised my safety as a Law Enforcement Officer, the safety of his passengers and the integrity of the Airport Security system. He was easily overheard by the many passengers on the jetway when he exclaimed, "You think you can just walk on here, flash a badge and bring a gun on my airplane?" and during boarding when he sarcastically and boisterously said, "An FFDO, Boy I feel safe now!" This is not only negligent it is criminal.

[Alchemy]

Maybe the one downside of a union is that it makes it harder to fire people like this.

[Seggy]

The FFDO acted extremely professionally, unlike the commuter captain.

If I was the FFDO I would report this to the TSA and make sure that they follow up on this immediately.

[Diamnd15]

being new to most of this, most captains try to make the process discrete as possible. this is just one of those horror stories i hope i never have to deal with, but i think this pilot handled himself very professionally by keeping his cool...

[chris]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is an FFDO?

[higney85]

its a damn shame that some guys get soo bent around the axle over people trying to help not only the pilot group but the pilot profession and the thousands of people he/she transports every year.

[jknight8907]

Originally Posted by chris

Pardon my ignorance, but what is an FFDO?

Federal Flight Deck Officer: http://www.tsa.gov/lawenforcement/programs/ffdo.shtm

[chris]

Originally Posted by jknight8907

Federal Flight Deck Officer: http://www.tsa.gov/lawenforcement/programs/ffdo.shtm

Thanks, I just dont see why this is so controversial.

Anyhoos, time for a starbucks!

[MQAAord]

O - M - G.

That "commuter CA" needs to have his attitude adjusted in a serious way. I hope the jumpseating CA writes this up to everyone necessary.

[Velocipede]

Unfortunately, I've encountered plenty of knucklehead FFDOs. Initially, a lot of them were macho types who signed up for the program thinking it would be the ticket for them to carry concealed weapons all the time. When ALPA dragged their feet on the program, the set up their own little organization to push the program on the Federal Government.

You'd be surprised how many signed up just so they could circumvent the TSA.

There are numerous cases of FFDOs going "John Wayne" on other pilots, rampers and CSAs. This time a Captain just got there first. He probably doesn't like the idea of firearms on his airplane. Neither do I. Its one thing to have firearms aboard carried by real LEOs. But, a two week class and annual recurrent doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling when I've seen FFDOs drop their guns in the cockpit, leave them in airport bathrooms, stow them in inappropriate places and use the program as an ego enhancer.

Besides, the FFDO program will be completely pointless until they put a gun port in the flight deck door so the "lawman" can shoot a perp without opening the door. Works on armored cars, doesn't it?

[bike21]

Well, remembering there are always at least 3 sides to a story it does sound like the 'commuter Captain' in question was a bit of a hot head. It is a real disappointment how some supposed 'professionals' can act. Especially in the public eye.

It sounds like the FFDO did a good job at defusing the situation as best he could.

I'll agree with Velo on the fact there are plenty of knucklehead FFDOs. I get a kick out of the ones who strap it on during flight. What? You don't trust your fellow pilot??

[jynxyjoe]

i'm a happy self admitted gun nut, soon to be captain on an aircraft that will have a flight deck door and i don't think i'll volenteer for the FFDO. its not because i don't want to, it is because:

-some FFDO's make the whole group look like wack jobs. like some gun owners in general

-some pilots are so scared of guns that they make you feel like crap for wanting to carry one to alleviate their own fears. much the same as children and soccer moms do

this is the perfect example of why i refuse to carry on the job until folks chill out about guns. I conceal carry, i'm comfortable with guns, i'd love to exercise the privileged of an FFDO but there are enough people out there trying to shame you into not doing it i've finally acquiesced. outside the job is another story though thank God.

[WAFlyBoy]

As Bike eluded to above, this is one version of the account. Although assuming it is factually correct, it would appear the FFDO acted professionally, unlike the regional captain.

My personal take on the FFDO program: I don't believe it enhances flight deck security or provides adequate training for the participants. An extensive background check and badge issuance that allows flight crew to bypass security, however, may be a good thing. It's too bad the only folks with that privilege are also permitted to carry firearms into the sterile area.

None the less, I still believe jump-seating FFDOs still deserve to be treated with professional courtesy and respect, like any other flight crew member.

[Velocipede]

My problem with FFDOs is that if it ever came down to brass tacks, he's just as likely to shoot me as the perp. That's why I want a gun port in the door if the program is going to continue.

[kellwolf]

CA should at the LEAST get a stern talking to from the JS committee and forced to spend some time reading his FOM. Sounds like the FFDO did all that was required.

That being said, I've had (okay, I've been FO on a flight thathas had) a string of condescending FFDOs. They'll board, not introduce themselves and stow their NDB. There have been at LEAST three flights in the past month that we had a FFDO JSing with their NDB and not known about it until after the flight. If they're armed, the CA is required to know not only that they're on board, but where they're sitting. If border patrol agents, the DEA and other LEOs that are authorized to carry can follow procedure, these guys shouldn't have a probelm with it either.

Looks like the above FFDO did the proper thing. My bet is the CA had a rash of run-ins with the same type of FFDOs we've been flying around lately, and SERIOUSLY went off the deep end.

At least I know which regional it wasn't, though.

[BobDDuck]

Not knowing the guy who posted this originally, I have no way of judging how things happened. It sounds like the regional captain had a bit of an attitude problem and it sounds like the FFDO handled it well.

That said, I will agree with Velo that there are MANY people in the program who have no business being there. The physc exam and training do NOT weed out everybody it should and there are plenty of pilots toting guns who have no business carrying a water pistol let alone an HK. Obviously I'm not going to relate some of the stuff I've seen, but needless to say, in my view, it is not a good system.

[C150J]

Thoughts for those of you who think that the training program is inadequate and that "regular" LEOs are somehow more qualified to SHOOT a gun on a plane:

- Depending on the agency, some LEOs qualify FEWER times per year than an FFDO.
- Depending on the agency, some recurrent shoots are a complete joke.
- One-two weeks of firearms training is STANDARD for most police academies. Full time cops aren't throwing more rounds downrange than an FFDO during initial training.

I can understand the arguments some pose against the FFDO program, but this isn't one of them. There are definitely valid points that make me question its utility, but I can't say I feel any "safer" if a full-time LEO is on board vs. an FFDO.

There are plenty of wack jobs that carry a badge and a gun full time, but it doesn't mean that there aren't fantastic police officers and federal agents out there. Same goes for FFDOs.

[C150J]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

But, a two week class and annual recurrent doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling when I've seen FFDOs drop their guns in the cockpit, leave them in airport bathrooms, stow them in inappropriate places and use the program as an ego enhancer.

I briefly worked for a metropolitan PD before flying professionally. Before attending the academy, I was in charge of filing disciplinary notices into officers' jackets for various "oopsies." I can tell you that this type of stuff happens to "real" LEOs, not just FFDOs. That includes using the job as an ego enhancer.

I agree with you, it's unfortunate. However, I can't say that FFDOs are any less responsible than full-timers.

Again, two weeks of initial training in not uncommon for full-time police officers. I can understand your problems with the program, but you should also have a problem with full-timers. If you ever have the chance to look at a post-shooting police investigation, take a look at how many rounds generally miss the target.

[C150J]

Ok, sorry for the repetitive posts, but I want to add one more thing. I should add that I am NOT an FFDO.

I think those who don't have LE experience are equating this situation to a freight dawg's ability to shoot an instrument approach to mins in a 210 versus a lawyer who owns one and occasionally flies it. Yes, if cops were out there in highly tactical situations every day and shooting, it would fit this logic. This is not the case. In fact, investigators are usually the ones we see boarding out aircraft. Although they are trained properly, they're not even out there making traffic stops (a very dangerous and tactically-minded situation) anymore.

IF this was about clearing a room, administratively pointing a firearm at a subject for compliance, or probable cause/officer safety, then we'd have a good argument. However, this program is about drawing a firearm with intent to pull the trigger. Again, I can TOTALLY see other points against the program, but I just can't agree with the sentiment that a full time LEO is somehow more qualified to carry a gun on an aircraft.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by C150J

IF this was about clearing a room, administratively pointing a firearm at a subject for compliance, or probable cause/officer safety, then we'd have a good argument. However, this program is about drawing a firearm with intent to pull the trigger. Again, I can TOTALLY see other points against the program, but I just can't agree with the sentiment that a full time LEO is somehow more qualified to carry a gun on an aircraft.

That's just it. The entire FFDO program is designed to "clear a room". A LEO who happens to carry a gun (yokels aside) has been trained and works daily with balanced responses to threats. The "shoot first ask questions later" thing doesn't normally happen in every day law enforcement. However, *if* an FFDO had to actually respond (and as far as I know there has been no case so far where they have) the lead IS going to be flying. The program is a knee jerk reaction to 9-11, which is really not the point of this thread, who's sole purpose is to provide the method, means and authorization for a pilot to shoot and kill somebody attempting to take over an airplane.

In my view (and this is just MY view) the money could have been better spent designing better primary and secondary barriers, increasing passenger screening and providing more air marshals. The FAM program's SOLE job is to protect flights. A pilots SOLE job should be to fly the airplane.

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by kellwolf

That being said, I've had (okay, I've been FO on a flight thathas had) a string of condescending FFDOs. They'll board, not introduce themselves and stow their NDB. There have been at LEAST three flights in the past month that we had a FFDO JSing with their NDB and not known about it until after the flight.

Oh, that's nothing. I had an FO (not a jumpseater, but my FO actually working the flight) who didn't tell me he was an FFDO. We flew outbound at night on a highspeed, and clearing security the next morning I saw him bypass the checkpoint. I asked him when I saw him on the other side how he cleared security. "Oh, I'm an FFDO. I don't have to go through security." This jackass was carrying on the flight the previous night and didn't even tell me. Needless to say, he got a piece of my mind. I doubt he'll overlook telling his Captains in the future.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I don't think FOs should even be eligible for the FFDO program. I have a real problem with FOs "briefing" Captains on how security breaches will be handled in flight. Nobody should be briefing the Captain on how things will be done on his airplane.

[Doug Taylor]

Nah, you won't get flamed. The only folks who get flamed are the Gulfstream types!

BUT what I will say is that I don't have a problem at all with either the FO or the captain being an FFDO. Even if I was a captain and my fo was FFDO, big deal.

Performance of duty on the flight deck and activation of an FFDO are mutually exclusive.

If I'm skipper and someone comes crashing thru the cockpit door, I'd be more than happy for the FO to bust a cap or three into the guy.

The brief is a good thing. I've been briefed by an FO who is an FFDO on a number of occasions when I was jumpseating and it gave me direction on what to do if the shiznit hit the fan... No use me dying along with the terrorist if someone decided their chosen book and requisite voice-in-the-head said something about commandeering an aircraft and running it into an inanimate object.

[Cptnchia]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I don't think FOs should even be eligible for the FFDO program. I have a real problem with FOs "briefing" Captains on how security breaches will be handled in flight. Nobody should be briefing the Captain on how things will be done on his airplane.

Sooo.. The guy who was a domestic 767 captain for several years, then decided to bid FO on a 777 for QOL is now not "qualified" to brief anyone? Don't the FAMs "brief" you on how they are going to handle a security breach on your aircraft? How about every time I brief the captain on my leg how I'm going to fly the departure and handle an abort? (SOP @ DAL.) I could also mention how the A line usually "briefs" the captain on how she is going to run the cabin. I'm sure you're not this type, but you sound like the crusty old captains at the regional I flew at who were afraid of their own shadows, and had to compensate by trying to emulate Robert Stack from "The High and the Mighty" right before John Wayne introduced "CRM" to his @ss.

[Doug Taylor]

I do brief every time it's my leg. I pretty much say, "In the event of a aborted takeoff, I'll keep control of the aircraft UNTIL YOU SAY 'My controls' and I also feel you on the controls."

It's probably a holdover from flying at Skyway where they emphasized a positive transfer of control no matter who was flying.

[aloft]

Eek....this thread's getting a little heavy on FFDO operational details for my tastes! And don't ask how I know this!