Denying the Jumpseat

[Van_Hoolio]

For the captains out there...

Say a jumpseater comes along that you don't want on board. How do you deny the person the privilege to jumpseat on your flight? Oxygen? Weight restrictions? What about situations where there are open seats in the back vs. when there are not?

Any other smooth way to do it or do you just nut up and flat out tell the guy why they're not getting on?

Mike

[BobDDuck]

Velocipede 3... 2... 1...


We booted a GoJets guy once (right after they started up). There were plenty of seats in the back and the Captain (who was former TSA) told him he was a scum bag and wouldn't be getting a ride today.

[calcapt]

No reason to hide behind a false excuse. If for some reason you don't want to extend this courtesy to someone, be professional enough to explain why. I always extend the offer of a seat in the back if one is available. Sounds like we are off and running on another jumpseat thread. Buckle up.......

[MSUDAWG]

If there are no seats in the back and the company the person trying to jumpseat works for is CASS approved (and not a scumbag airline), does the captain usually let that person ride or what? how does that work?

[Doug Taylor]

I've only seen one guy get denied a jumpseat. The captain went out to the gate, said his peace and told him that there were plenty of seats and to sign up for a pass.

Not saying his rationale for doing what he did was valid because it's not my jumpseat, but the guy got on in the back and he was at least professional enough to deny the jumpseat face-to-face.

[DE727UPS]

"told him he was a scum bag and wouldn't be getting a ride today"

HAHA.....that works....

I'd only deny a scab. Probably won't ever happen cause I get about one offline jumpseater a year and I don't check lists or anything. But I'd have no problem telling a scab why I denied him.

Streamers and Gojeters are free to ride with me. It would be an educational experience for all.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by Van_Hoolio

Say a jumpseater comes along that you don't want on board. How do you deny the person the privilege to jumpseat on your flight? Oxygen? Weight restrictions?

Remember what Nancy Reagan said, "Just say no." You don't have to be a jerk about it. If its a normal person, they'll say "Thanks anyway" and go to their next option. If they need a reason, you just tell them what you think:

For Gojets, jetBlue, Virgin and Skybus - "I don't extend Union negotiated benefits to non-Union pilots."

For scabs - "The jumpseat is not available to you."

End of discussion. Don't lie, don't argue, don't get involved in a scene. Its your jumpseat, issue or deny it as you see fit.

What about situations where there are open seats in the back vs. when there are not?

Open seats? If any of these "marginal" guys are smart and their employer is a CASS participant, they'll take the assigned seat the CSA gives them, act like a non-rev, sit down and shut up. At my airline, I have no way of knowing if a seat has been assigned to non-revs or CASS jumpseaters unless the guy comes to the flight deck and identifies himself. All that ID, license and employment checking is now done by the agents.

Its actually a blessing for the scabs. Unless I personally go to the podium and ask if there are any jumpseat requests, I have absolutely no indication that there are CASS jumpseaters aboard.

[Soul Brotha']

I had one of our Captains deny a Freedom guy the actual jumpseat. This Captain has been at OH for over 20 years and has seen it all with the company. I do not agree with what he did but it is his decision. Halfway through cruise we talked about it and his rational was they were an alter-ego airline and brought the industry down. He knew that most of those people are no longer there but didn't see why anyone would want to work at that place. I don't see any reason to play jumpseat games unless the person is a true scab.

[Doug Taylor]

True story.

I had a captain deny a flight attendant a cabin jumpseat once.

Apparently, that morning in the van, the flight attendant read the captain the riot act about how the union was going to destroy the company and (insert 15 minutes half-thunk vitriol).

At the end of the day, the flight attendant was jumpseating home and the captain refused the form and told him to go get on the standby list.

I'm not sure if he got on or not.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by MSUDAWG

If there are no seats in the back and the company the person trying to jumpseat works for is CASS approved (and not a scumbag airline), does the captain usually let that person ride?

Unless there's something unusual going on (like IOE or a checkride) virtually all Captains will allow you on the flight deck. Most instructors will even let you up there during IOE. If you are granted a cockpit jumpseat during an IOE event, you should be extra vigiliant about not disturbing the training environment.

That said, there are always exceptions. We had a Captain who would not allow jumpseaters from our own Company on the flight deck, much less pilots from other airlines. His rationale, "I don't ask for the jumpseat, so I don't give it." And he was well within his perogative as Captain to do so.

The only practical response was, "Thanks, anyway. I'll just catch the next flight." Nothing is served at that point by getting angry or upset. You don't get upset if you're denied due to weight and balance. Chalk it up to the vagaries of jumpseating and just another reason for NOT commuting.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

That said, there are always exceptions. We had a Captain who would not allow jumpseaters from our own Company on the flight deck, much less pilots from other airlines. His rationale, "I don't ask for the jumpseat, so I don't give it." And he was well within his perogative as Captain to do so.

The only practical response was, "Thanks, anyway. I'll just catch the next flight." Nothing is served at that point by getting angry or upset. You don't get upset if you're denied due to weight and balance. Chalk it up to the vagaries of jumpseating and just another reason for NOT commuting.

And report it to your jumpseat committee. There's people with good reasons for denying the jumpseat, people with marginal reasons for denying the jumpseat and people with just bizarre reasons - it's for the jumpseat committee to sort them out.

[DE727UPS]

Velo will disagree.

Sorry, I'm bored..

He'll say it's the Capts seat to give away and the jumpseat committe has nothing to say about it.

At UPS, that is not the case.

[Soul Brotha']

I also saw this one while jumping on B6 out of JFK one time. It was a FedX guy and myself. As the crew was heading toward the plane from the gate he stopped and talked to the gate agent. She mentioned that we were both trying to get the jumpseat. There was already a B6 guy listed and it came down to the two of us. The FedX was first so he should of got it b4 me. The funny thing was this guy was talking smack about the airline industry and companies like B6, SW, etc and how they were hurting the whole pilot group b4 the crew arrived. But what he didn't know was the the gate agent was listening to our conversation. The gate agent I guess relayed that info to the Captain and I got on and he didn't. Remember that jumpseating is a great service just don't be an arse while using it. Have your opinions but don't express them anytime.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by CFIse

And report it to your jumpseat committee. There's people with good reasons for denying the jumpseat, people with marginal reasons for denying the jumpseat and people with just bizarre reasons - it's for the jumpseat committee to sort them out.

Sounds like its different at UPS, but at our place, the Jumpseat Committee has very little to say about how individual Captains administer the program. That's due to the fact that our system regulations and the ALPA Admin manual dictate that final authority for issuance of the jumpseat rests SOLELY with the individual Captain.

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Open seats? If any of these "marginal" guys are smart and their employer is a CASS participant, they'll take the assigned seat the CSA gives them, act like a non-rev, sit down and shut up. At my airline, I have no way of knowing if a seat has been assigned to non-revs or CASS jumpseaters unless the guy comes to the flight deck and identifies himself. All that ID, license and employment checking is now done by the agents.

Its actually a blessing for the scabs. Unless I personally go to the podium and ask if there are any jumpseat requests, I have absolutely no indication that there are CASS jumpseaters aboard.

CASS assigned seat or not, all jumpseating pilots are required to check in with the captain for his/her approval.

For any pilots new to the industry, never just take a seat in the back while jumpseating without speaking with the captain and requesting permission to ride. This is a quick strategy to remove your entire airline from a reciprocal jumspeat list.

[DE727UPS]

Well. It is different at UPS.

We gave away Capts authority for "must rides" on our last contract. It's a touchy subject and the union is going to the FAA to try "redefine" the status quo.

What we got was commercial tickets for deadheads in the line building process. Much the same as Fedex.

The company does have the ability to use the jumpseat to position crews in the reserve system. Not sure how that works at Purple, but if a Capt were to bump a reserve crewmember on company business, there would be hell to pay. A couple guys tried it and it wasn't pretty.

Now, the union is trying to work directly with the FAA to restore Capts authority to the jumpseat at UPS. Should be interesting....

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

For Gojets, jetBlue, Virgin and Skybus - "I don't extend Union negotiated benefits to non-Union pilots."

Dont forget Skywest.

Hopefully, you'd never need to hop a ride on JBLU. Wonder if they'd extend you the same courtesy.

[Ian J]

Here's what I don't get about jumpseating. And yeah, I'm not a regional/ major airline pilot, so maybe I should just stick to the CFI forum, but in this case maybe an ignorant outsider viewpoint might make a little sense.

The way I understand jumpseat agreements, is they are supposed to benefit all parties involved. If I own airline "A," I want my pilots to be able to jumpseat on airlines "B" and "C" so they can get to and from work. In return, I extend the same benefit for "B" and "C" pilots to jumpseat on my airline. Tit for tat.

If the Captain is responsible for the safe operation of a flight, how does a particular jumpseater affect said safety? How does the jumpseater, no matter what airline they fly for, affect anything pertaining to the safe operation of a flight?

Stepping way outside the box, if I were an airline CEO, I would not want my captains making jumpseat decisions based on a political agenda. It's bad for business. Enough of airline "A" denying seats to those upstart "C" guys and eventually airline "C" will say "screw you, no more seats for you!" Now I can't get my guys to work.

Assuming the safe conduct of a flight is not an issue, why in the world are Captains allowed to make these very arbitrary jumpseat decisions? A good example would be Velo's example of a Captain denying a seat to a company pilot simply because the Captain himself didn't ask for jumpseats. How does that make any sense, and how does that help the company? Saying it's the Captain's prerogative isn't much of a reason, IMO.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

CASS assigned seat or not, all jumpseating pilots are required to check in with the captain for his/her approval.

This is not true at all airlines. Once you are CASS approved and assigned a seat at my place, you are just another non-rev.

For any pilots new to the industry, never just take a seat in the back while jumpseating without speaking with the captain and requesting permission to ride. This is a quick strategy to remove your entire airline from a reciprocal jumspeat list.

This depends on individual airlines. Some prefer you not speak to the crew if assigned a seat in back.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by Ian J

A good example would be Velo's example of a Captain denying a seat to a company pilot simply because the Captain himself didn't ask for jumpseats. How does that make any sense . . .

Because the captain is the boss - the Ace Boon Coo . . . the top dog. Nothing happens without his permission. That's a fact. It's all his discretion. His agenda is most important. Don't question it - he'll win. It's all about the stripes.

And so on . . .

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Hopefully, you'd never need to hop a ride on JBLU.

I don't ask favors from non-Union carriers. I don't buy tickets on them, either.

[MSUDAWG]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

I don't ask favors from non-Union carriers. I don't buy tickets on them, either.

So are you saying if some airline is not a card carrying union, you wont allow pilots to jumpseat on your airplane? My company has an agreement with yours but we arent a union carrier, so would you deny me a ride?..And no, we arent 121, we are 135...

[TheFlyingTurkey]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

I don't ask favors from non-Union carriers. I don't buy tickets on them, either.

You would actually deny a jumpseat to a JetBlue pilot? Just because they are non-union? I watched JBlue pilots jumpseat all the time on USAirways out of CLT headed to FLL when I was flying for PDT. Nice guys too.

That brings me to another question. Are non-union airlines and the pilots that work for them hurting the rest of the union pilots? Should pilots avoid non-union airlines at all costs? Is it as damaging as PFT like Gulfstream?

I personally know a furloghed American FO that got hired at JBlue, got to keep his seniority, and just got recalled back to American. Is he a scumbag for flying for a non-union airline while on furlough?

Lots of questions and I probably just opened up another can of worms...

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

CASS assigned seat or not, all jumpseating pilots are required to check in with the captain for his/her approval.

I would never non-rev or jumpseat without thanking the crew, either before or after the flight depending on which is the best time to thank them. Its just a courtesy that I think someone with a little respect should do. But I wouldn't bother them if I see they are pretty busy before the flight. In that case on the way off the airplane I'd make sure to pop my head in and say thank you. Hell, I say thank you even when I'm a dead head or a paying customer. A little appreciation goes a long way, and when I'm at work it makes my day when customers, non revs or jumpseaters say thanks for the great job.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by MSUDAWG

So are you saying if some airline is not a card carrying union, you wont allow pilots to jumpseat on your airplane? My company has an agreement with yours but we arent a union carrier, so would you deny me a ride?..And no, we arent 121, we are 135...

Here's exactly what I said:

"For Gojets, jetBlue, Virgin and Skybus - "I don't extend Union negotiated benefits to non-Union pilots."

If you're not employed by one of those 4, you have nothing to worry about.