A question about the RLA

[wheelsup]

What's keeping the ALPA carrier pilots from just walking off the job if they haven't been released for a strike? What are the ramifications if every pilot at every ALPA carrier walked off the job at the same time like the NYC subway peeps did?

[Seggy]

I think you can be thrown in jail and civil penalties in terms of lawsuits for each individual that does so.

[Chris_Ford]

Massive fines and jailtime for union leadership. Fact of the matter is, that's enough to deter the heads from doing it.

[wheelsup]

Will they throw every pilot in jail, or just the leaders? When American had the sickout the union was fined but no one went to jail.

[Chris_Ford]

Just the leader because that's all they need.

You think CAPTAIN JOHN PRATER would go to jail for the cause?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Just the leader because that's all they need.

You think CAPTAIN JOHN PRATER would go to jail for the cause?

No, but the CA and I came up with some sweet management style moves today. I think he's on to something.

[wheelsup]

Here's the deal. The threat that the government will take action against ALPA, it's officers, and it's huge war chest is pretty large. It prevents us from just walking off the job like the NYC subway workers.

Well, what if we could secure the officers' futures with their own golden parachutes. We'll give 'em $5 mil a pop or something, send 'em to Aruba, and they can call it a day.

Meanwhile, the huge war chest ($$) that ALPA has accumulated thus far will be "donated" to a separate entity. Think MAIR and Mesaba. MAIR took the money that Mesaba needed to operate, Mesaba declares bankruptcy, and cuts union contracts. We do the same thing.

ALPA transfers it's money into "AHC" (ALPA Holding Company), leaving ALPA penniless. We walk. All of us, from the guys flying the 1900's to the 777 pilots. We have a single contract in hand, that all operators will then sign, stating specific pay rates, work rules, etc. that is now negotiated by the AHC.

Presto. A single contract, ALPA gets sued but has nothing to give, new union leaders are elected, and the current officers play golf the rest of their lives in the Caribbean (or wherever they want to go).

Sounds good to me!

[Chris_Ford]

Yeah, the public would really respect us then!

[Rocketman99]

Good thing we don't really care.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Rocketman99

Good thing we don't really care.

And thus we establish why this profession is on its way (or already in, depending on your perspective) the crapper.

[Cruise]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

And thus we establish why this profession is on its way (or already in, depending on your perspective) the crapper.

Um, NO! Our caring (or not caring) what the public thinks about our profession has little to do with why the profession is on its way to the crapper. Deregulation (among other reasons) has everything to do with it.

When an airline sells seats for less than it costs to operate said seat.......that puts the profession in the crapper.

When an airline pays its upper management millions while taking money from its employees........that puts the profession in the crapper.

When an airline treats its employees as liabilities instead of what they should be, their most valuable asset......that puts the profession in the crapper.

When an airline attempts to circumvent established contracts.....that puts the profession in the crapper.

Do you need me to continue????

So while I often agree with you Chris.......I respectfully disagree with your above statement. The airline industry is finally reaping the product they've been planting.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Will they throw every pilot in jail, or just the leaders? When American had the sickout the union was fined but no one went to jail.

True enough, but the fine is spread out over the entire membership. Divide $43M by the number of AA pilots and there's your reason.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Cruise

Um, NO! Our caring (or not caring) what the public thinks about our profession has little to do with why the profession is on its way to the crapper. Deregulation (among other reasons) has everything to do with it.

When an airline sells seats for less than it costs to operate said seat.......that puts the profession in the crapper.

When an airline pays its upper management millions while taking money from its employees........that puts the profession in the crapper.

When an airline treats its employees as liabilities instead of what they should be, their most valuable asset......that puts the profession in the crapper.

When an airline attempts to circumvent established contracts.....that puts the profession in the crapper.

Do you need me to continue????

So while I often agree with you Chris.......I respectfully disagree with your above statement. The airline industry is finally reaping the product they've been planting.

I agree with all the points you've made, but when airline pilots have no pride in their job, and "don't care" what the public thinks, it goes to show how selfish and immature a majority of the pilot workforce is.

The public = the people who pay your paycheck. Not caring what they think just comes across as ungrateful and mindlessly egotistical.

The inability to see things from the other side absolutely bewilders me sometimes. Management may make a move and pilots will think "OMG WE'RE GETTING SCREWED!1111" when in fact it's a reasonably pragmatic move for the company (and unfortunately the pilots weren't the beneficiary). Also, the general lack of compassion towards the pax always drives me nuts.

Imagine you're going on a vacation to Europe. This is the biggest vacation of your family's life. You have spent $2000+ on plane tickets for your family of four. Then, the day before you're supposed to go to Europe, these selfish pilots all walk off their job illegally. Your $2000 goes to waste, not to mention your hotel expenses and other things you've booked. All because the pilots broke the law in a selfish selfish manner. Vacation of your life is ruined (the hotel was expensive and no refund = can't rebook within the next year) so Joe Pilot can make $110k a year instead of $95k.


Things like that are the reason the RLA exists. Going on these wildcat strikes accomplishes nothing. It's the equivalent of hearing a bunch of teenagers talking about how hardcore anarchists they are. "Oh, I get it. Anarchy means that you litter!"

[Velocipede]

Actually, the Railway Labor Act (RLA) has nothing to do with passenger rights or convenience. It was designed to keep the railroads moving FREIGHT in interstate commerce.

Vacations had nothing to do with it.

[Chris_Ford]

Passenger airplanes dabble in a little thing I like to call mail transport....

A side effect of that is the pax inconvenience.

[Rocketman99]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

I agree with all the points you've made, but when airline pilots have no pride in their job, and "don't care" what the public thinks, it goes to show how selfish and immature a majority of the pilot workforce is.

The public = the people who pay your paycheck. Not caring what they think just comes across as ungrateful and mindlessly egotistical.

The inability to see things from the other side absolutely bewilders me sometimes. Management may make a move and pilots will think "OMG WE'RE GETTING SCREWED!1111" when in fact it's a reasonably pragmatic move for the company (and unfortunately the pilots weren't the beneficiary). Also, the general lack of compassion towards the pax always drives me nuts.

Imagine you're going on a vacation to Europe. This is the biggest vacation of your family's life. You have spent $2000+ on plane tickets for your family of four. Then, the day before you're supposed to go to Europe, these selfish pilots all walk off their job illegally. Your $2000 goes to waste, not to mention your hotel expenses and other things you've booked. All because the pilots broke the law in a selfish selfish manner. Vacation of your life is ruined (the hotel was expensive and no refund = can't rebook within the next year) so Joe Pilot can make $110k a year instead of $95k.


Things like that are the reason the RLA exists. Going on these wildcat strikes accomplishes nothing. It's the equivalent of hearing a bunch of teenagers talking about how hardcore anarchists they are. "Oh, I get it. Anarchy means that you litter!"

I guess I am selfish and immature. It's a vacation, not like it's something really important. And for their "vacation of a lifetime" I'm sure there would have been some sort of travel insurance. So poor example IMO. Cry me a river.

Or how about this, it disgusts me when I look at what seems like about 50% of airline passengers today. TSA stupidity reasons aside, when did it become okay to get on a plane in a wife beater and flip flops?!?! I was brought up to dress and act respectably, particularly when it came to air travel. Call me a traditionalist but somewhere in the past few years that completely went out the window, it must have happened while I was living in Japan.

Unfortunately that goes for some of my fellow pilots as well, particularly at the regional level. Walking around with a backpack over the shoulder and an ipod blasting with sunglasses on top of your head does not a professional image present. If you don't look or act the part, it's very difficult to get any respect for being the part.

Hmm...I must be grumpy because I'm tired, maybe I should go to bed.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by Rocketman99

I guess I am selfish and immature. It's a vacation, not like it's something really important. And for their "vacation of a lifetime" I'm sure there would have been some sort of travel insurance. So poor example IMO. Cry me a river.

Or how about this, it disgusts me when I look at what seems like about 50% of airline passengers today. TSA stupidity reasons aside, when did it become okay to get on a plane in a wife beater and flip flops?!?! I was brought up to dress and act respectably, particularly when it came to air travel. Call me a traditionalist but somewhere in the past few years that completely went out the window, it must have happened while I was living in Japan.

Unfortunately that goes for some of my fellow pilots as well, particularly at the regional level. Walking around with a backpack over the shoulder and an ipod blasting with sunglasses on top of your head does not a professional image present. If you don't look or act the part, it's very difficult to get any respect for being the part.

Hmm...I must be grumpy because I'm tired, maybe I should go to bed.

Wow.

[Rocketman99]

I take it you disagree?

[PCL_128]

Wheelsup, the problem with your idea of AHC (ALPA Holding Company) is mainly that ALPA doesn't work under the same set of laws that corporations do. ALPA is a non-profit labor organization. Labor unions simply don't have the ability to "hide" money the same ways that corporations do.

[kellwolf]

Now, I do have to agree that I get a little miffed at what a lot of passengers are wearing onto flights. I don't even go to Target or IHOP looking like I just rolled out of bed still in my pajamas, but a lot of passengers do. Is that their right? Sue, I guess so. I also guess I have a little more personal pride than they do, too.

I've also been the personal ruiner of at least a dozen vacations, so that's nothing new to me. I can't count on both hands how many times I've been told "You're ruining our vacation!" b/c I told someone their child was too small to ride Space Mountain. People can get bent out of shape about the smallest things. Honestly, if your child not being able to ride Space Mt due to a height restriction that is not secret and is broadcast in plain sight on park maps, big blue signs and the internet, then you did some seriously poor planning. Just like if you bought a ticket on an airline that is having labor issues. If it looks like an airline is going to strike, don't buy a ticket on that airline. Not only are your travel plans less likely to get interrupted, you'll probably actually help the labor groups' cause. If the vacation really is the "trip of a lifetime," a little research goes a long way towards making it successful. I don't think that's too much to expect from passengers. Then again, maybe they'll just click on whatever the lowest fare is on Orbitz and come in with expectations that are too high.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by Rocketman99

I take it you disagree?

I really do, but I suppose it doesn't matter what I think.

[Doug Taylor]

Ladies...

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

I agree with all the points you've made, but when airline pilots have no pride in their job, and "don't care" what the public thinks, it goes to show how selfish and immature a majority of the pilot workforce is.

The public = the people who pay your paycheck. Not caring what they think just comes across as ungrateful and mindlessly egotistical.

The inability to see things from the other side absolutely bewilders me sometimes. Management may make a move and pilots will think "OMG WE'RE GETTING SCREWED!1111" when in fact it's a reasonably pragmatic move for the company (and unfortunately the pilots weren't the beneficiary). Also, the general lack of compassion towards the pax always drives me nuts.

Imagine you're going on a vacation to Europe. This is the biggest vacation of your family's life. You have spent $2000+ on plane tickets for your family of four. Then, the day before you're supposed to go to Europe, these selfish pilots all walk off their job illegally. Your $2000 goes to waste, not to mention your hotel expenses and other things you've booked. All because the pilots broke the law in a selfish selfish manner. Vacation of your life is ruined (the hotel was expensive and no refund = can't rebook within the next year) so Joe Pilot can make $110k a year instead of $95k.


Things like that are the reason the RLA exists. Going on these wildcat strikes accomplishes nothing. It's the equivalent of hearing a bunch of teenagers talking about how hardcore anarchists they are. "Oh, I get it. Anarchy means that you litter!"

With airlines using the BK laws to get around the RLA, and judges reinterpriting laws to favor management. NMB refusing to release unions for self help (in some cases 5+ years after said contract became ammendable) and the threat of pesidential order.

Things have begun to greatly shift more pro management in terms of contract negotiations. A strike was labors only means to fight the man and get his attention.

In these days and times, the threat of a strike just doesn't carry that much weight anymore. Just trying to be released to strike is an act of congress in and of itself.

So what really can labor do these days to fight back when management has the keys to the kingdom figuratively?

Love to hear your answers.

[Rocketman99]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

I really do, but I suppose it doesn't matter what I think.

Hey now, I wouldn't say that Lloyd. I got nothing but love for ya man. I think we just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Now does any of this mean I'm not going to provide the customer service and what not that goes along with my job? No, to do anything less than my best to get the folks from A to B as quickly, courteously, and safely would mean I'm not doing my job. It would also mean (to me) that I didn't care and that's not the case. I take pride in my work and my job and my appearance as much as I can. Is it wrong to desire other people to do the same? When it comes to pilots, we are all paid PROFESSIONALS. We should always look and act the part.

OK, enough thread crep from the RLA here...

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Rocketman99

Hey now, I wouldn't say that Lloyd. I got nothing but love for ya man. I think we just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Whaaaa?

NOOO!

The rules of engagement on the intarweb clearly state that you're supposed to simply disagree and continue replying until the thread reaches 15 pages, at which someone says "You guys all suck!" and "I'm going over to whatever.com where everyone's cool!" or "I'm taking my ball and going home!"

You're wrecking the process here, bub!