SKYW pilots score another vicory,

[mrivc211]

originally posted by Steve Dow-OC Member.

SAN FRANCISCO, June 29 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --

On June 27, 2007, the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California issued a preliminary injunction upholding SkyWest Airlines pilots' federal rights to discuss and learn more about the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA) and the benefits of union representation, and finding that the company had unlawfully interfered with those rights. The SkyWest Pilots ALPA Organizing Committee is working with ALPA to gain union representation for SkyWest pilots.

"This injunction is a great victory for SkyWest pilots," said ALPA President Captain John Prater. "It will empower them to take ownership of their lives through access to information that can further their professional futures. ALPA stands ready to help the Organizing Committee in whatever capacity needed to foster additional wins for workers rights."

The preliminary injunction allows SkyWest pilots to continue to wear ALPA lanyards, talk about ALPA openly, and distribute ALPA-related materials on non-work time in non-work areas such as the crew lounge and bulletin boards -- all rights which the company has sought throughout this process to deny.

The Court concluded that the Organizing Committee had made a strong showing that SkyWest management has unlawfully interfered with the federal right of SkyWest pilots to organize. In its opinion, the Court also addressed SkyWest's funding of its in-house pilot organization. Although the Court declined to order SkyWest to cease funding immediately, it did indicate that management's 100 percent funding of the organization almost certainly violates the Railway Labor Act.

The preliminary injunction vindicates the right of pilots to organize and sends a strong message to SkyWest that it may not discriminate against or attempt to silence pilots who support ALPA. More than 2,600 pilots fly for the St. George, Utah-based SkyWest Airlines, Inc., serving 19.5 million passengers in 140 cities in the U.S. and Canada.

Formed in 1931, ALPA is the world's largest pilots union, representing more than 60,000 pilots and crewmembers at 41 airlines in the U.S. and Canada.
Air Line Pilots Association, International
CONTACT: Pete Janhunen of the Air Line Pilots Association,
International, +1-703-481-4440, media@alpa.org
Web site: http://www.alpa.org/

[DitchDriver]

IMHO... and I emphasize, my opinion here as I am with the understanding that I don't know it all, don't claim to and I'm always open to furthering my knowledge on both sides of the issue.. namely here the ALPA drive going on at Skywest..

I understand the need for representation and contracts and frankly if I were with any other company other than Skywest I'd be in the frontlines welcoming ALPA with open arms. As pilots we work hard to produce a resume that shows our qualifications, skills, and a history of real world experience that proves we've earned our right to be a part of the team. There is an exodus of pilots coming from other regionals to Skywest that are ALPA represented. Again, if I'm hiring someone, or in this case, deciding on whether or not to have ALPA represent me and my well being, then I'd like to witness and see what they are currently doing for other regionals. The common reponse to this is, "if ALPA were not on property it would be much worse" How management, at these "other" regionals, is getting away with their antics and outright abuse in my opinion is unthinkable.

I can't help but think of the gym or cell phone membership that one wants so badly to get out of because of horrible customer service yet cannot because they are handcuffed via a commitment. My gut tells me that ALPA is another gym membership promising me the world until they get a commitment to the tune of 2% of my hard earned money every month..

Through my training experience ALPA was continually pushing their literature, providing free meals, etc. I understand the intent here. I don't put it down, however I have learned that ALPA is a BUSINESS, and it is BIG business.. I don't fault another for wanting to make a living and run a business but I get the feeling that they have one arm around me while the other is in my back pocket. And once they get their hands in my back pocket every month my new best friends will not be so friendly anymore.

I would like to see some workrules changed, however I don't believe ALPA is the answer, nor have they shown me that they have any influence elsewhere when it comes to changes in workrules. I believe Skywest has and will continue to do the right thing for it's employees. They have remained competitive in the industry despite what others have done to pinch pennies at their employees expense.

Could things be better at Skywest? They always could be and I'm sure there is room for improvement. Again, in my opinion, ALPA is not the answer. For many they seem to be the ONLY saving grace for their future, job security, etc. A HUGE business + monopoly= lots and lots of money without much accountability and frankly I don't like it.

Again, I know I have much to learn and perhaps someone could educate me on my proposal here.. ALPA gets voted on property but only for a period of time.... 1-2 years to implement their program and prove their value. After the time has expired another vote takes place on whether or not to retain them. And then perhaps another vote takes place again after a period of time. Perform and you will get compensated, what a concept.

[E_Dawg]

Originally Posted by DitchDriver

My gut tells me that ALPA is another gym membership promising me the world until they get a commitment to the tune of 2% of my hard earned money every month.

From what I understand ALPA actually loses money on regional airlines. 2% of regional paychecks just isn't enough to cover their expenses for the same pilot group. The only thing they can really 'get' for skyw is some real, tangible job security with legal backings. No more 'at will' employment. There are an infinite number of ways to screw up on any given flight. No one's above the potential for a mistake and it should be a lot harder for a mistake to cost you your career and livelihood. It's not all about pay raises. It's about protecting what you already have. I truly believe that management tries to keep things reasonable and fair, however the only thing that actually means anything is a contract, something skyw pilots do not have.

Do you pay for health insurance? You'll probably (hopefully) never take more out than you put in to that program, either.

About pay, though, with attrition as it is it's only a matter of time before pay goes up, or the regional industry will reach capacity in that there just won't be anybody new bodies to fly the planes. All regionals are having a hard time finding qualified applicants, and some (mesa) are losing as much as, if not more than they're hiring. Not saying we should just sit back and hope for the best, but the tide is certainly in our favor.

[mrivc211]

"Through my training experience ALPA was continually pushing their literature, providing free meals, etc. I understand the intent here. I don't put it down, however I have learned that ALPA is a BUSINESS, and it is BIG business.. I don't fault another for wanting to make a living and run a business but I get the feeling that they have one arm around me while the other is in my back pocket. And once they get their hands in my back pocket every month my new best friends will not be so friendly anymore. "

And the company hasn't had their hand in your front,side,back pocket for a long time now? Yes, they are there to make money, but not while we don't receive our fair share, and not be treated fairly at the same time.

[DitchDriver]

So that I understand you clearly... If ALPA comes to town then we'll be getting paid our fairshare, work rules will improve etc.. If you're absolutely certain of this, then yes, I can understand your desire. However, I'm sure I could get an endless list of things Mesa pilots are fed up with.. If any ALPA rep and Mesa pilot(s) want to have an open forum here to Q&A the issues I'd love to read about it.. Explain to the rest of us why it's so horrid over there and why ALPA can't/won't do anything about it..

I understand it's not all about pay and ALPA doesn't have much pull when it comes to increases, etc.. I understand the representation issue, however, of all the terminations that have been cited, the trend seems to be that it was warranted and if anything Skywest offered second and third chances before they simply had no other choice.

I was on a flight with a guy who's now with a major, spent 12 yrs in the regional business, spent time as a check airmen and experienced the in's and out's of the biz both in management and on the line. His opinion was that the percentage of those who desperately wanted a union/representation, were those near the top of seniority list and a percentage of those were people who had action taken against them. Meaning prior to or during flying for the airlines had some type of FAA action taken against them and were not moving any further than the regional they're currently at. So, if they're stuck and can't get life to "improve" where they're at, they need ALPA to come save the day.. Far fetched? It's just an opinion he offered..

Let me reiterate that I'm not a complete ALPA hater... I just don't think it's the end all be all solution here.. So many of us are, in my opinion, willing to gamble with ALPA.. Can someone tell me that if they come aboard how long they could stay? is there a term? can we $%$& can them if we don't want them?

[Ralgha]

Originally Posted by mrivc211

Yes, they are there to make money, but not while we don't receive our fair share, and not be treated fairly at the same time.

Oh come on. You've made some great points over time, but this one is laughable. ALPA will take their 1.95% of each and every paycheck whether they accomplish anything or not.

[H46Bubba]

I've been a union man since the first time I stepped foot in the airline business. A union is the lesser of two evils. Yeah they take your money, but when the time comes they're there when you need them..legal representation, contract negotiations, and so on.
All the nay sayers keep saying "look at Mesa they're an ALPA carrier and they're sucking!" I worked at Mesa and have friends who fly at Mesa. JO is a force to be recond with. He wants a quarterly and yearly spread sheet in the black with lots of dollar signs and he'll do whatever and step on whomever it takes to keep it that way. Until JO screws up and gets #### canned, that's the way it's gonna be. So using Mesa is a very bad example. Yes ALPA needs to change the way it does business and get into the 21st century. Thay only get 2% because if they charged what they do with the majors, you'd be living in hood eating beenies and wiennies!
SkyWest is making a lot of money and you guys at SkyWest need to get your part of the pot along with better work rules and QOL. There is always the other option of creating your own union like Southwest and American free from the puppet masters control. SAPA is a sham and a puppet of the SkyWest management. They want you to feel as though the end of days is coming when and if ALPA is brought on property. They're scared and because they been giving you guys the shaft minus the ky jelly for quite some time, especially the Bro pilots. I know here at Comair all our MEC council are line flying pilots. SAPA is the biggest joke EVAR!

[mrivc211]

Originally Posted by Ralgha

Oh come on. You've made some great points over time, but this one is laughable. ALPA will take their 1.95% of each and every paycheck whether they accomplish anything or not.

Look bro- I respect you, even though I don't know anything about you...how about we make this place a pro alpa/skywest vs a what ever else it ends up being.

[kellwolf]

No one is ever certain that pay and work rules will improve if ALPA comes on property. If someone were to tell me that, I wouldn't believe a word of it. There's no way to guarantee that. What ALPA is, simply, is career insurance. Live E-Dawg pointed out, I pay for health insurance hoping I won't NEED to use the full extence, but it's nice to know it IS there if I need it.

People go to Skywest for a lot of reasons. Some come from other ALPA carriers with crappy contracts that are in negotiations (PCL, ASA and Mesa), some come for a west coast base b/c they live on the west coast and the commute is easier, and some come b/c the upgrade time might be lower (Air Wisconsin, PSA). ALPA is like health insurance. Sure, management is treating you good now, but there's NO guarantee that would continue if the business model needed to adapt, costs needed to be cut to secure a new contract or a new CEO took over with a hard line approach. It would be nice to know that there's a legal document and an organization that will back you to enforce that contract. I've worked at another union that was more or less run by management (non-aviation), and evertime contract negotiations came up, the company got exactly what they wanted and we got exactly NONE of what we wanted. Why? The union higher-ups were in the company's back pocket. I'm not saying that can't happen with ALPA, but if it does there are ways and means to have those people replaced.

ALPA is only as good as the local MEC as well. If you've got a weak or corrupt MEC, then don't expect too much out of them. Vote 'em out in the next election.

ALPA's not perfect, but I know without them here my company would have already enforced higher healthcare premiums, a crappy pay rate for a 76 seat aircraft, fewer days off, no way to refuse an extension and the potential to be an airport reserve for up to 5 hours after my original release time during "irregular operations (without a clear cut definition of what irregular ops is)." The only thing keeping the company from flat out making that happen b/c thye want it too is that document that ALPA negotiated.

[E_Dawg]

I understand that Mesa took the contract they did in order to essentially fight off the threat of a gojets-esq fiasco. I don't understand how they're going to maintain the status quo, with them being unable to staff their airplanes under their current contract.

[mrivc211]

Yo E-dawg- dude- theres gonna be soooooooo many hot girls coming on saturday its not even funny! Bring your camera!

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by Ralgha

Oh come on. You've made some great points over time, but this one is laughable. ALPA will take their 1.95% of each and every paycheck whether they accomplish anything or not.

Not laughable it is the truth and fact.

ALPA does lose money on Regionals. Even at ExpressJet, the regional with the best contract and pay rates out there ALPA still loses money. ExpressJet Pilots pay around $500,000 in annual dues. The ExpressJet ALPA MECs yearly budget is $2.5 million. The two million additional comes from the major airlines.

[EDUC8-or]

ALPA offers you his protection. Vote for ALPA!

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by Seggy

Not laughable it is the truth and fact.

ALPA does lose money on Regionals. Even at ExpressJet, the regional with the best contract and pay rates out there ALPA still loses money. ExpressJet Pilots pay around $500,000 in annual dues. The ExpressJet ALPA MECs yearly budget is $2.5 million. The two million additional comes from the major airlines.

Seggster, how's the new life in the left seat going?

[E_Dawg]

Originally Posted by mrivc211

Yo E-dawg- dude- theres gonna be soooooooo many hot girls coming on saturday its not even funny! Bring your camera!

Not even counting the ones I'm bringing?

[H46Bubba]

Originally Posted by DitchDriver

I can't help but think of the gym or cell phone membership that one wants so badly to get out of because of horrible customer service yet cannot because they are handcuffed via a commitment. My gut tells me that ALPA is another gym membership promising me the world until they get a commitment to the tune of 2% of my hard earned money every month..

A gym membership or cell phone plan is of course not an insurance policy. ALPA is an insurance policy. It's easy to get into trouble in aviation. All it takes is one little mistake and don't tell me you've never made a mistake. We can try not to make mistakes and be as safe and proffessional as possible, but we're humans and we do make mistakes. I would sure like having ALPA there to help me get a fair hearing and not be out in the open unprotected against management.

Through my training experience ALPA was continually pushing their literature, providing free meals, etc. I understand the intent here. I don't put it down, however I have learned that ALPA is a BUSINESS, and it is BIG business.. I don't fault another for wanting to make a living and run a business but I get the feeling that they have one arm around me while the other is in my back pocket. And once they get their hands in my back pocket every month my new best friends will not be so friendly anymore.

It's more like you're paying ALPA knowingly...actually handing them the money like you would to any cashier. Before that you were just standing there with your hands tied behind you back watching management take most of your money out of all your pockets..then watched them pick your wallet clean!

[GaTechKid]

ExpressJet Pilots pay around $500,000 in annual dues. The ExpressJet ALPA MECs yearly budget is $2.5 million. The two million additional comes from the major airlines.

How does 1.95% of the 3000+ ExpressJet pilot salaries only equal $500,000?

At an average of $60,000 per captain and $30,000 per FO I get over $2.6 million.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by GaTechKid

How does 1.95% of the 3000+ ExpressJet pilot salaries only equal $500,000?

At an average of $60,000 per captain and $30,000 per FO I get over $2.6 million.

I can get the exact budget numbers for you.

[GaTechKid]

Originally Posted by Seggy

I can get the exact budget numbers for you.

You can PM them to me if you don't want to post them. Thanks.

[pilot602]

I love how the very same people who berate the 1% pay "raise" (which they "voted" in) as being too little then turn around and complain about a 2% union due. These very same people spend more than 2% eating out on trips or in beer alone on trips. It's TWO PERCENT.

Two-percent of $60,000 is $1,200/yr or $100 a month or $50 a paycheck (taken out pre-tax, I believe). Two-percent of unemployment because the company decided, on a whim, to change their staffing policy, close a base, lost a contract, decided to cut pay by 40% is well ... 2% of zero, is zero.

Of course, it's not like there is a recent history of unilateraly changing pay policy ...


My biggest question to non-union folks is this:

Why are you so unwilling to stand up and take control of the financial well-being of not only yourself but your family?

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by pilot602

My biggest question to non-union folks is this:

Why are you so unwilling to stand up and take control of the financial well-being of not only yourself but your family?

Because it's a dream to them. . .it hasn't become reality yet that you have to defend your livelihood.

/slight

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by GaTechKid

You can PM them to me if you don't want to post them. Thanks.

I will have those numbers for you next week. My XJT contact is out on vacation till then.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by Ralgha

Oh come on. You've made some great points over time, but this one is laughable. ALPA will take their 1.95% of each and every paycheck whether they accomplish anything or not.

Originally Posted by GaTechKid

How does 1.95% of the 3000+ ExpressJet pilot salaries only equal $500,000?

At an average of $60,000 per captain and $30,000 per FO get over $2.6 million.

Originally Posted by GaTechKid

You can PM them to me if you don't want to post them. Thanks.

Ok my contact got back to me today from his vacation. Once again, you at Skywest would get MORE back from ALPA national than your dues would be.

The best analogy to use would be similar to a tax bracket (he said the ALPA accountants HATE that analogy, but it is the best way to describe it so bear with me). The tax bracket is really top heavy though. You have the majors. FEDEX, United, CAL, DAL, NWA, ALASKA, putting more into the pot. Then it is divided into three parts.

The first part is local MEC, the second is ALPA national, the third is the National Contingency Fund.

FEDEX or any other major puts more into ALPA national than ExpressJet does. All of the regionals get back the money they put into ALPA national when because their budget needs are more than their members dues. He said a general rule is that a regional gets back all their members dues time two. Think your taxes (ALPA dues) back PLUS more from Bill Gates (the major airline pilots).

So when Skywest votes ALPA in, say the dues they collect are three million dollars. You would get that back from ALPA national PLUS another three million thanks to the top heavy dues.

I HOPE this clears it up. If you guys need individual people to call concerning the exact financing, who will be able to explain it better, please let me know. I have his permission to give out his number for questions to be asked.

1.95% is the best deal on ANY insurance policy out there!

[mrivc211]

But bu bu..........if we get a union, we wont be able to expand! We don't need a union here, nothing will happen to me. I swear.

Plus I don't wanna give my 2% to a big business. I mean, I'm only making $20,000 this year, so $33/month is too much to give up for all that protection. Who would want that? The lawyer I'll need when the company decides it was my fault the ramper guided me into a cart, will only cost $10,000-15,000. Hmmm.......$33/month vs. $10-15K.

It's ok, when I'm done paying the $9,800 for the lawyer(I worked out a deal to save money cuz I'm a cheap bastard pilot, and a medical issue came up and I decided to use the same lawyer, so he gave me a big discount) it will only cost me another $5,000 to take care of the medical issue thats not really a big deal.

Hmmmmm........mean while, my mgmt team is looking out for my best interests. Thats right, they wanna make more money for the company, and not their back pockets. When they sit in those meetings with mainline, they aren't telling United/Delta hey it's ok. We'll fly those 900's at the same price as we fly the 200's for you. Why? Because we don't have a union on property and we can! Because we're the employer of choice. Nahhh. None of this could ever happen to me/us. We Don't need no stickin union!

[EDUC8-or]

Originally Posted by mrivc211

But bu bu..........if we get a union, we wont be able to expand! We don't need a union here, nothing will happen to me. I swear.

Plus I don't wanna give my 2% to a big business. I mean, I'm only making $20,000 this year, so $33/month is too much to give up for all that protection. Who would want that? The lawyer I'll need when the company decides it was my fault the ramper guided me into a cart, will only cost $10,000-15,000. Hmmm.......$33/month vs. $10-15K.

It's ok, when I'm done paying the $9,800 for the lawyer(I worked out a deal to save money cuz I'm a cheap bastard pilot, and a medical issue came up and I decided to use the same lawyer, so he gave me a big discount) it will only cost me another $5,000 to take care of the medical issue thats not really a big deal.

Hmmmmm........mean while, my mgmt team is looking out for my best interests. Thats right, they wanna make more money for the company, and not their back pockets. When they sit in those meetings with mainline, they aren't telling United/Delta hey it's ok. We'll fly those 900's at the same price as we fly the 200's for you. Why? Because we don't have a union on property and we can! Because we're the employer of choice. Nahhh. None of this could ever happen to me/us. We Don't need no stickin union!

Don't forget you won't pay dues your first year when you're making 20 grand. You'd be on probation, and even though you're not paying dues they will still protect you unless you do something really stupid.