Lights on the ground at the airport ...

[Seggy]

[begin rant]

Does anyone else out there have a pet peeve when it comes to lights on the ground at the airport?

I think we can all agree that...

Nav lights, beacon, tail light (dusk to dawn) ON when aircraft is NOT moving...

Taxi light, beacon, tail light (dusk to dawn), nav light ON when aircraft is moving.

However, my pet peeve is when cleared onto a runway or you are crossing a runway, guys light up the planes like Christmas trees ESPECIALLY at night.

When you are cleared onto a runway, keep the landing lights, recon lights, and strobes OFF. When you are cleared for takeoff THEN you turn those lights on. This doesn't screw up the guys behind you night vision, is courteous AND it does not give the illusion that your aircraft is moving when you are holding in position.

Some will cite the Skywest, USAirways crash in LAX. Two things with this, first if you are coming in to land at a major multiple airport runway at night, it is very hard to disseminate planes on the runway REGARDLESS if they have all their lights on or not. Be courteous to the guys on the ground. Secondly, if we have situational awareness of painting a picture of the planes around you, and then if a plane is cleared on the runway; you will be able to pick it up. We can't just rely on what we see when we are flying. Listening to the tower to hear the aircraft movements is also key!

I know that some airlines (Jetblue) have a policy that when on a runway they need their lights on. If I had a dollar for every time I was behind a Jetblue 190 crossing 33R at BOS with the strobes on at night, I would be on Doug’s yacht in the Mediterranean.

Am I the only one that thinks this way?

Also I would LOVE to have a little chitchat with the Embraer designer who designed the location of the strobes on the E-170 and E-190

Finally to the British Airways 747 Captain the other night in Boston, who had ALL of his freaking landing lights on, when you were face to face with the little Beech 1900 airliner on the taxiway a two miles from the end of the active runway, no we did NOT have a problem with our landing lights, we were trying to send you a message to turn your DANG lights off when we were flickering our landing lights on and off. I think my headache has finally gone away.

[end rant]

[taildragger173]

While I personally agree with your rant, airline ops spec says when to turn on those lights. Dont blame the pilots for following SOP.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by taildragger173

Dont blame the pilots for following SOP.

Agree with you 110%!









Two things though...

First some SOPs state use discretion with lights etc. Use it please.

Secondly, if your SOP causes the crew behind you to lose their night vision when they are about to takeoff at night, then is that SOP safe?

[FlyChicaga]

I mostly agree with what you are saying. Like said above, some airlines have specific procedures in place that tell them what lights need to be on and when.

I follow what you propose above about ground movement. However, when crossing an active runway, I will always turn on the strobes and wing inspection lights. I have been cleared into position on a runway with an B737 on two and a half mile final, and have been cleared to cross a runway with an airplane on the takeoff roll. I believe the short period the strobes are on is minor compared to the increased safety of "lights on" crossing a runway.

In position and hold at night, I will not use strobes. We use wing inspection lights and nose gear lights (landing and taxi). Then cleared for takeoff, I'll turn on the wing landing lights and strobes.

I hate being blinded, but I'd hate being blindsided more.

[Dugie8]

sorry if my turning on all of the lights so as to be seen on an active runway and NOT get landed on.

Some things (staying alive) are more important than your comfort.

[mikecweb]

At a towered airport I turn on the taxi light while taking the runway for a position and hold.
If I'm at an uncontrolled field I light her up with everything when I'm on any runway including crossing runways.
You gotta watch out for those Flight Express guys they come outta no where.

[EDUC8-or]

We were cleared to taxi out in front of "Dad" in CLT on night and he had his taxi light blazing away (he was facing directly at our right side). There was a long line for departures and we didn't move for about 5-10 minutes. Finally I grabbed a flashlight, turned it on, and directed it at their flight deck. I wasn't trying to be a snot, I just couldn't see! He turned his lights right off.

[casey]

there was a DVD in the ALPA magazine a couple months ago put out by ALPA safety and the FAA giving gidelines on use of lights when crossing runways, in position and hold and cleared for takeoff.

iirc, flychicaga's method was what they used.

[jtrain609]

We're not given direction for crossing, but any time we're crossing the hold short line with the intention of taking off we've gotta turn all the lights on, even if we're going to be holding in position for a while.

[EatSleepFly]

Originally Posted by taildragger173

While I personally agree with your rant, airline ops spec says when to turn on those lights. Dont blame the pilots for following SOP.

SOP for us in the Metro is to have the taxi light, recog lights, ice lights, nav lights, and beacon on anytime we are moving, day or night. We're told in type training that this is the result of some accident, that I don't currently recall. Seems like overkill to me, and I'm sure other pilots think we're a bunch of toolbags, but I do what I'm told. I'll turn them off if I think they are going to burn right into another pilots' cornea (unless its SkyWest.... j/k ), but other than that, they stay on.

Strobes... now THAT is annoying. No excuse, unless its takeoff or landing roll.

[OldTownPilot]

Just the other night I had a crew walk away from an airplane while leaving the beacon on......whoops.

Had a couple come in to the the gate with the strobes on. If you leave the taxi lights on you are going to get a big "X" from my wands until you turn them off.

AAeagle has a mx base up here and the ran ALL the lights at the gate next to us. HOLY CRAP that is a lot of brightness.

After nearly 2 years on the ramp I sometimes think I am losing my vision along with my hearing.

[kellwolf]

For us, we're supposed to turn on the strobes, recog and taxi lights when cleared onto the runway. I'll reach up and flip on the strobes when crossing an active runway as well. Landing lights come on when cleared for takeoff.

[wheelsup]

FO's here don't touch the lights until after landing. Honestly, I let the Captain run the show, he's 'the man'. If he wants the strobes on while crossing the runway, so be it.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by Seggy

[begin rant]

Does anyone else out there have a pet peeve when it comes to lights on the ground at the airport?

All great stuff - now go and tell it to the crew of the commuter plane at LAX that were cleared into position and hold, were forgotten about, and then had a 737 land on them and slide them across the airport into a fiery pile. Oh that's right, you can't, they're all dead.

I'm sorry your delicate eyes are being inconvenienced when captains turn all their lights on when entering an active runway, but look at ths way, the explosion when they get hit by a landing 747 will ruin your night vision something chronic.......

[Rocketman99]

That's only if you happen to believe that them having more lights on would have done anything. Personally, I doubt it. If you can't tell the red and green and white lights or the spinny red one, I don't think adding a few more is gonna help. I can't stand it either when I'm about to be number one and a plane taking the active suddenly lights up like a blinking christmas tree. To take it a bit further, I also can't stand those alternate blinking landing lights or whatever they are on some planes. Very annoying.

[SteveC]

Anytime the master switch is on, so are the nav lights. For engine start the beacon comes on. For movement on the airfield we turn on the taxi/recog lights and tail flood light (may shut off taxi/recog as needed to prevent blinding other aircraft & linemen and such). Taking the runway the strobes come on, and cleared for take-off the landing lights come on.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by Rocketman99

That's only if you happen to believe that them having more lights on would have done anything. Personally, I doubt it. If you can't tell the red and green and white lights or the spinny red one, I don't think adding a few more is gonna help.

Well those are certainly your beliefs, and you're entitled to them. It would explain why companies have SOPs and don't just tell people in initial training "look, just fly the planes the best you know how, and good luck". The problem with beliefs is they are often misguided.

Read the accident investigation - without all it's lights on the commuter could not be distinguished from the runway environment, with all it's lights on certainly there was a better chance and people with far more expertise than you or I certainly believe there was a far better chance the accident could have been avoided.

Try flying at night, try landing behind an aircraft landing ahead of you with all it's lights on - I think you'll find it's not as easy as you think to identify the plane, and you know it's there. Now get rid of the strobes, and the landing lights and recog lights and all the other lights that annoy you - now it's MUCH harder to see.

Sorry - this is just the classic case of what's the loudest whine on an airplane - the pilots on the flight deck, the engines come a distant second.....

[BajtheJino]

Originally Posted by Seggy

Am I the only one that thinks this way?

No. I don't look at the lights. As far as the 74 goes, tough break. Hold up a clip board to block out the light. I don't need to stare at an airplane on the ramp, taxi-way or anywhere else. I verify when needed and keep my eyes down to protect my precious night vision. If it is that big of a problem wear sunglasses. I'm not trying to be an arse but the whine is louder than my noise canceling headsets can handle. Btw, I'm a night hauler so I'm not just spouting.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by CFIse

All great stuff - now go and tell it to the crew of the commuter plane at LAX that were cleared into position and hold, were forgotten about, and then had a 737 land on them and slide them across the airport into a fiery pile. Oh that's right, you can't, they're all dead.

I'm sorry your delicate eyes are being inconvenienced when captains turn all their lights on when entering an active runway, but look at ths way, the explosion when they get hit by a landing 747 will ruin your night vision something chronic.......

I doubt that having all the lights on would have helped that much. First the critical lights are facing away from the line of sight of the 737 pilots, secondly it could be very difficult to tell the difference between touchdown zone lights and an airplane that is sitting there.

There have been times I thought there was an airplane on the runway because of the patten of the lights at night, when there was not and there have been times I have not seen an aircraft depart before me when coming in to land at night.

What you see at night can be funky.

Originally Posted by CFIse

Well those are certainly your beliefs, and you're entitled to them. It would explain why companies have SOPs and don't just tell people in initial training "look, just fly the planes the best you know how, and good luck". The problem with beliefs is they are often misguided.

Read the accident investigation - without all it's lights on the commuter could not be distinguished from the runway environment, with all it's lights on certainly there was a better chance and people with far more expertise than you or I certainly believe there was a far better chance the accident could have been avoided.

Try flying at night, try landing behind an aircraft landing ahead of you with all it's lights on - I think you'll find it's not as easy as you think to identify the plane, and you know it's there. Now get rid of the strobes, and the landing lights and recog lights and all the other lights that annoy you - now it's MUCH harder to see.

Sorry - this is just the classic case of what's the loudest whine on an airplane - the pilots on the flight deck, the engines come a distant second.....

No you can not blame specific airlines and their SOPs. As a professional we have to follow our particular airlines SOPs, not blaming the pilots for that.

But while we are on the topic of SOPs, then why do different airlines have different SOPs for pretty much the same thing? Why does AA have a different SOPs that Delta does for the MD-80, 757/767, 737, 777 then? Which one is 'better'? Which one is 'safer'?

Try 'looking away or looking down' from the lights at BOS or LGA during rush hour when ground is trying to sequence you during the evening rushes.

REAL SAFE


Thanks for calling me a whiner!

Think about it as a safety issue. What happens if you are cleared to takeoff after you are 'blinded', your eyes are still adjusting and you have trouble finding the aircraft on short final? What happens if you are 'blinded', takeoff and have an emergency? Is it safe that you have to read important gauges that will determine the corrective action you have to take after being 'blinded'?

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

FO's here don't touch the lights until after landing. Honestly, I let the Captain run the show, he's 'the man'. If he wants the strobes on while crossing the runway, so be it.

I agree about it being the captain's ship and I follow how he runs it, he is 'the man'. No way would I touch the lights because I think they are in the wrong position.



My briefing to a captain I have never flown with is...

Don't get me killed, violated, or fired.

[TonyC]

Originally Posted by Seggy

My briefing to a captain I have never flown with is...

You brief the Captain?









.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by TonyC

You brief the Captain?
.

Yeah I was gonna say, generally they are the ones briefing me . When they ask if I have any questions on their brief I ask about when they like to take over the aircraft on landing, when they like the in-range/approach checklist called for, and when they like the APU on but heck I still feel appreciative they LET me fly the plane !!

Although in Seggy's case, he probably flies more because he is the autopilot . J/k man!

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by TonyC

You brief the Captain?









.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Yeah I was gonna say, generally they are the ones briefing me . When they ask if I have any questions on their brief I ask about when they like to take over the aircraft on landing, when they like the in-range/approach checklist called for, and when they like the APU on but heck I still feel appreciative they LET me fly the plane !!

Although in Seggy's case, he probably flies more because he is the autopilot . J/k man!

Oh Jeez. Guys I am a COMPLETE DumbA$$!!!!!!!!

This was an example of when you post something and it doesn't come out the way you want!

First and foremost. PLEASE do NOT think I am one of those FOs that sits in the right seat with 3.5 stripes and is the right seat capitano. I AM NOT.

It is the captain's ship, I am the gear, flap, and door gunner.

What I meant to say is, what wheels said, when THEY, the captains give me the brief and ask if I have any questions, I say, "nope, just don't get me killed violated or fired."

Tony and wheels, thank you for pointing out my dumbness, in my wording.


PS - Wheels, I'm going through training next week with the same 'someone' who is printing a lot of stuff for us

[wheelsup]

I like Chang's spicy chicken

[Kingairer]

Ever wonder why Military dudes that are security at the airport are still wearing camo? The whole point is for them to be seen...Guess they were all out of Orange Crossing Guard unis?