No Fly List

[BobDDuck]

Anybody have one where they work (as in listing x number of CAs/FOs you don't want to ever fly with)? I have sort of been tasked with writing contract language up for one and want to get an idea of what is out there.

[Doug Taylor]

Yup! At my company, only FO's have the ability to do this though.

None on mine, but I know a couple characters that are on a number of FO's "No Fly Lists".

[Kristie]

So as CA, you can't pick/choose the FO's you don't want to fly with?

[Doug Taylor]

Not as per our contract. But I can as FO!

[BobDDuck]

The problem with allowing CAs to do it (as I see it) is say the CA lines are awarded first, then as an FO if your number one choice is on your list you are bumped down a choice. However, if the CA has you on the list you get bumped way down. If a guy was to be on every CAs list then in theory the number 1 FO could end up with his last choice line.

What I was thinking was:

-FO only.
-Max 3 per list
-If line the FO wants is taken by a guy on the list they get their next choice
-The program doesn't apply to reserve assignments.

[zmiller4]

My company takes it a step further--CA's don't have a list, FO's can choose one (I think) CA to not fly with, and FA's can pick an FO and a CA (I think) for their list.

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

-FO only.
-Max 3 per list
-If line the FO wants is taken by a guy on the list they get their next choice
-The program doesn't apply to reserve assignments.

Sounds reasonable to me.

[EDUC8-or]

Lemme guess the 3 people you won't fly with...

Guess what. I got called right after we parted ways. Today was just a 13 hour duty day, what a relief after the last two.

Can I refuse to fly with myself?

[EDUC8-or]

Or at least refuse to fly with you?

While I'm at it, I refuse to fly with feds in the JS.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by EDUC8-or

While I'm at it, I refuse to fly with feds in the JS.

I think you can do that once!

[EDUC8-or]

We wanted to, had to bump a couple PAX off so he could get home. We tried to let him know we were overweight, but he just didn't take the hint. He just sat and watched, but didn't thank us one bit.

[blee256]

we havent gone over the PBS yet, but thats what I was told. Capts lines are made first, so FO can choose a no fly, but capts cant.

[Doug Taylor]

I'd say give 'em at least five if it's a big base with a lot of pairings.

Most of the lists that I've seen 'strategically' left around the lounge have about four to six on them.

[rausda27]

Luckily the majority of the captains I have flown with at ASA, haven't made we wish we had such a system.

I do wish we had staggered bids for Captains and FO's, just so I could try and pair with some of the better ones.

The only lists we have are written on the walls of the crew bathroom in C concourse, and you really dont want to make that "wall of shame".

[Doug Taylor]

Oh how does the rule go -- "When someone says your name and it's followed by a nervous pause and an expletive, you might have a problem".

[TonyC]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Anybody have one where they work (as in listing x number of CAs/FOs you don't want to ever fly with)? I have sort of been tasked with writing contract language up for one and want to get an idea of what is out there.

We used to have a Negative Airman List, but don't any more.

When we had it, Second Officers could put First Officers and Captains on their list, First Officers could put Captains on their list, and the Captains could not use the list. There was no published limit to the number of airmen that could be put on the list. (I'm sure that management would have gotten involved if any list got too long.)


The list only applied in Initial Bid Line assignments. It was not used for Reserve Trip assignments.

It was used as one of the choices an airman could make during bidding.

For example, he could bid 14 lines of his choice by number, then his Negative Airman List, and then "Highest Paying Line without Carryover".

During Secondary Line construction, it was also one of many choices. An airman could list his preferences:

1) West-coast commuter line
2) Double Deadheads
3) Negative Airman List
4) Day Out-and-Backs

The rank ordering of the option communicated to crew scheduling how important the Negative Airman list was. For the above example, it was more important that flying Day Out-and-Backs, but he'd be willing to fly with one of those rascals on a West-coast commuter line, or a line of double deadhead trips.


I'm not exactly sure why we eliminated the Negative Airman list, but I haven't heard too much moaning about it. With our bid awards coming out on consecutive days, a First Officer who is intent on not flying with a particular Captain can look at the line that Captain was awarded, and bid accordingly.

There was something in this thread that suggested that you're dealing with Prederential Bidding System. Well, that will change all the rules, and make the use of the Neg Airman list more important, but perhaps more difficult. I would think long and hard before arbitrarily limiting the number of people on the list. I would be concerned about some kind of liablity issues. It may be a good idea to run the concept by the lawyers.






.

[Doug Taylor]

Speaking of that, rumor has it that a Northwest pilot was able to shut PBS down by adding a preference not to fly with himself and the system actually tried to 'unstack' and honor his preference.

And then the dreaded "DIVIDED BY ZERO" error!

[frog_flyer]

What happens if all the lines you want/bid for get taken by the senior dudes? Do they just stick you with a line or do you 'get' to sit reserve for the month?

[Doug Taylor]

You mean from your 'no fly list' or just basic bidding?

[wheelsup]

Here the CA's bid, and then the FA's and FO's bid about a week later. So as an FO you can "sorta" pick who you fly with if you want to bid that way, although I never put that much energy into bidding - way too much work.

[launchpad]

at skywest we have the option in our PBS system. FO's get 1 bid, and FA's get 2. When the lines are built, the ca's go first, then fo's, then fa's. It's a pretty logical event when PBS is involved....not sure how the logistics would work for hard lines....

[Kristie]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Here the CA's bid, and then the FA's and FO's bid about a week later. So as an FO you can "sorta" pick who you fly with if you want to bid that way, although I never put that much energy into bidding - way too much work.

I was just going to ask about that...So CA's bid the trips they want first by location, commute and so forth.. and then FA's/FO's/SO's bid after capt. bids are out but can also base their bid on captain preference as well...

that's interesting, i didn't know that's how it worked.

[stultus]

When is your contract amendable?

I can't believe there is a whole lot of utility to a no fly list. We're all professionals and adults, right?

If my company had one I think there'd be only two people on it. One was a captain who was a total tool (actually I'd probably fly with him again because I never told him that he was a tool and I think that I'd enjoy telling him as much) and then probably BobDduck because he never e-mails me or returns my phone calls.

[DE727UPS]

We don't have a no fly list. Capts bids close two days before F/O's. If you're an F/O you need to bid around any Capts you don't want to fly with.

[MQAAord]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Speaking of that, rumor has it that a Northwest pilot was able to shut PBS down by adding a preference not to fly with himself and the system actually tried to 'unstack' and honor his preference.

And then the dreaded "DIVIDED BY ZERO" error!

For some reason, that totally cracked me up.

ERROR*ERROR.......LOGIC*SEQUENCE*ERROR.... *poof* goes the PBS server with a little trail of smoke in the air like the cartoons.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by stultus

....and then probably BobDduck because he never e-mails me or returns my phone calls.

Dude... I'm sorry. I'll call you tomorrow some time.