What would you do?

[mrivc211]

Applying to the majors- stay in the Turboprop and keep building Turbine PIC with decent schedule drive to work or go to RJ, commute, and build PIC jet time?

what say you?

[amorris311]

im sorry i cant help but i was under the impression pic is pic no matter if it is in a jet or a turbo prop. i say go for it you only live once.

[mrivc211]

Did I mention I drive to work, and have weekends off?

[DE727UPS]

Well, I got hired with turboprop time. Are any EMB120 guys going to the majors? SkywestChris said there were 4 Skywest guys in his Alaska class.

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by mrivc211

Did I mention I drive to work, and have weekends off?

What is your experience level? Are you competitive for the jobs you are seeking? If the answer is no...then weekends off doesn't really matter. You need to do what it takes to get qualified first...then worry about weekends off later.

Once you are satisfied with your experience level...then do whatever it takes to get the weekends off.

[Seggy]

Stay in the EMB120.

Look at the guys in their 40s and 50s that are at the Majors that came up the civilian route. They didn't have jet PIC time as RJs were not around. They had Beech 99/1900 PIC, Saab PIC, ATR PIC, EMB120 PIC, and Dash PIC. If you go into an interview and they ask, "Well why should we hire you, everyone else has jet PIC time." You can answer that one by saying what about the hundreds of pilots before me that are at your company before RJs came out on the market that were hired with only Turboprop PIC.

For what it is worth, we have had people leave my company, an all T-Prop place that have gone to Continental, UPS, FedEx, Jetblue, Airtran, and Southwest.

Its who you know that will get you the next job.


Thats my humble opinion.

[higney85]

PIC is PIC, but it is known that Jet time helps- even if it isnt PIC. Every major you go to (unless a 727 for fedex or the 8 at UPS) will be flying jets with glass/FMS. It is a plus to show that you have used it before. If you have good QOL and get a good bit of time flying the t-props it becomes a tough decision to go and start at the bottom of a list as an SIC (unless its a major). I do know (at fedex) if you show up with 1000hrs PIC jet vs. 1000hrs PIC t-prop, all else being the same on the resume/personality- the jet guy gets the job. At least thats what the chief pilot mentioned.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by higney85

PIC is PIC, but it is known that Jet time helps- even if it isnt PIC. Every major you go to (unless a 727 for fedex or the 8 at UPS) will be flying jets with glass/FMS. It is a plus to show that you have used it before. If you have good QOL and get a good bit of time flying the t-props it becomes a tough decision to go and start at the bottom of a list as an SIC (unless its a major). I do know (at fedex) if you show up with 1000hrs PIC jet vs. 1000hrs PIC t-prop, all else being the same on the resume/personality- the jet guy gets the job. At least thats what the chief pilot mentioned.

This is COMPLETELY untrue, especially how you talk about FEDEX. My buddy at Colgan did an intern at FedEx and has some great connections there. Every one of those connections has said stay were you are at, get the turbine PIC and we'll teach you how to program the FMS.

Turbine PIC is Turbine PIC, companies don't give a damn what it is in. I've picked up how to use an FMS from jumpseating.


What about all those that have gone to majors with no jet time? How do you think they learned.


Its who you know, not what you know.

[OldTownPilot]

If one of the interviewers is older, ask them what their first jet was.

Anyone hired before '93 will say 737....or something thereabouts.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

If one of the interviewers is older, ask them what their first jet was.

Anyone hired before '93 will say 737....or something thereabouts.

competitive in 1993 ≠ competitive in 2006

It would be interesting to do a survery to see what sort of time people have when hired at the majors in the last year or two.

Ie mostly turboprop background vs. jet background
applied, interviewed, and hired

Based off of percentages, ie if 100 people applied, 40 were turboprop drivers and 60 were jet.

I would like to see the percentage of people pulled for interviews, and the percentage of people hired. So if 30 out of 40 turboprop guys were interviewed and 40 out of 60 jet guys were interviewed it would be equal.

Expand that to the hiring process.

That would be a definitive answer. Otherwise we're all just guessing. One thing that does tell a tale - Continental's minimums are LESS if one has jet time vs. turboprop time. I think that says something about how they value turboprop time.

[DE727UPS]

"Continental's minimums are LESS if one has jet time vs. turboprop time"

How much less? Say you need 500 more tubroprop to even the field. That would be less than a year of line flying. Is that worth the QOL hit to fly the jet? I still think if you can upgrade faster in the turboprop, that's the way to go.

The whole argument about glass cockpits and FMC's is weak, I think. It's not that big of a deal. This whole game is more about who you know than what you fly. At UPS, if you can get a recommedation and get to the interview, you just need to meet the mins. Turboprop vs Jet isn't a big deal. How you come across at the interview, is.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

competitive in 1993 ≠ competitive in 2006

It would be interesting to do a survery to see what sort of time people have when hired at the majors in the last year or two.

Ie mostly turboprop background vs. jet background
applied, interviewed, and hired

Based off of percentages, ie if 100 people applied, 40 were turboprop drivers and 60 were jet.

I would like to see the percentage of people pulled for interviews, and the percentage of people hired. So if 30 out of 40 turboprop guys were interviewed and 40 out of 60 jet guys were interviewed it would be equal.

Expand that to the hiring process.

That would be a definitive answer. Otherwise we're all just guessing. One thing that does tell a tale - Continental's minimums are LESS if one has jet time vs. turboprop time. I think that says something about how they value turboprop time.

So are you saying T-Prop time is not as valuable as jet time? Who do you think makes the minimums? Is it a bunch of pilots or HR pencil pushers?

Why don't you come out and jumpseat with me one day flying in and out of RKD, AUG, and BHB in January. We'll do 7 legs, fly 7.6 hours log about 6.9 hours of IMC, with 2 ILSs, 2 backcourses, 2 NDBs, and one VOR approach. All handflown, no flight director, and no autopilot because we don't have one. I guess that time isn't valuable then

Do you think that if you had 2500 of Jet PIC you would get a job at Continental if you didn't know anyone there? Being competitive doesn't mean anything.

Its who you know that will get you your next job, once you meet the minimums.

[Seggy]

Like Don said learning how to fly glass and using the FMS is the least of it. I was riding shotgun a few months ago on a 757 from CLT to BOS. The crew was more than happy to show me how to use the FMS. Anyone with a pulse could be trained to use it in a few hours.

[launchpad]

Originally Posted by mrivc211

Applying to the majors- stay in the Turboprop and keep building Turbine PIC with decent schedule drive to work or go to RJ, commute, and build PIC jet time?

what say you?

go to the jet...I need the seniority bump......

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Seggy

So are you saying T-Prop time is not as valuable as jet time? Who do you think makes the minimums? Is it a bunch of pilots or HR pencil pushers?

Why don't you come out and jumpseat with me one day flying in and out of RKD, AUG, and BHB in January. We'll do 7 legs, fly 7.6 hours log about 6.9 hours of IMC, with 2 ILSs, 2 backcourses, 2 NDBs, and one VOR approach. All handflown, no flight director, and no autopilot because we don't have one. I guess that time isn't valuable then

Do you think that if you had 2500 of Jet PIC you would get a job at Continental if you didn't know anyone there? Being competitive doesn't mean anything.

Its who you know that will get you your next job, once you meet the minimums.

Relax. I was just pointing out the fact that we are ALL guessing unless some definitive survey comes out reflecting that turbine time = turbine time.

My point about the CAL mins is that THEY put more weight in turbojet time than they do in turboprop time. THAT IS ALL. I never said your job was easier (I know it's harder, no need to preach to the choir here). Thanks for the rant about how tough it is for you there. It must suck to walk uphill both ways in the snow too!

Who makes the mins? I don't know. Do YOU? I would think it would be between the flight department and HR.

Of course who you know is important. Anyone who says otherwise has their head in the sand. BUT, I have known captains move on to greener pastures WITHOUT knowing anyone because they are competitive. We all know an inside recommendation trumps everything else at most companies.

[jtrain609]

I don't know where this hype about needing jet time got started. Is there a jet column in your logbook? 'Cause there isn't one in mine. There is a, "Turbine," an "SIC," and a "PIC" column, and two of those, while filled cocurrently, help your career along. Another combo of those three options gets you no closer to miniums at most company's.

And isn't CAL the ONLY major that doesn't require turbine or turbine PIC time? FedEx, UPS, Southwest, Fontier, Alaska and AirTran all require some amount of turbine PIC eh? So why try to use the ONE company (with a HORRIBLE contract as far as mainline company's go) that doesn't require turbine PIC as the standard by which you'll judge what is quality time and what isn't?

Omar, stick with your current gig, get your turbine PIC requirement out of the way and then make your way over to the jet to get your jet/EFIS time if you really want it.

[GaTechKid]

Is there a significant other or children involved? Are you single and don't mind being able to afford a decent sized house for a decent price? If I were married and my significant other was making good coin I'd stay. Commuting blows. If I were single and I could hold a CRJ CA line in SLC, DEN, or COS I'd move in an instant. It's more money for easier time that can only help your resume.

[viper548]

Commuting sucks, stay in the EMB

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

So why try to use the ONE company (with a HORRIBLE contract as far as mainline company's go) that doesn't require turbine PIC as the standard by which you'll judge what is quality time and what isn't?

Because they are the only legacy actually hiring????

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I don't know where this hype about needing jet time got started.

Obviously by some senior FO's at a stagnant turboprop company !!!

I'm just playing devil's advocate in previous posts - I also agree that turboprop = turbojet in terms of it being PIC. Maybe not after you have 5000+ hours of turboprop PIC, but to meet mins and get your foot in the door turboprop is certainly just as good if not better way to go (more difficult aircraft, flying, etc).

I would still like to see some ALPA or Air Inc sponsored survey on the matter though. It would make for a good read, and certainly discredit a "myth" (or could prove it...) .

[flyguy]

There is an argument that if they fly jets, they want to see jet time, but I think a stronger agument is, they need captains to fly those jets, so PIC time is also valuable. I would guess (just a guess) that at most carriers, PIC turboprop time is going to be more valuable than SIC jet time.

[mrivc211]

As a very wise old aviator once told me, the pecking order goes:

1. PIC Jet
2. PIC TP
3. SIC Jet
4. SIC TP

[mrivc211]

The previous poster was right, it doesn't matter what time you have, as long as you meet the mins and know the right person, thats all it takes.

We've more guys than I can count get hired onto FEDEX/UPS/Southwest/Alaska straight from the Bro.

I love flying it, but the only two things I'm getting tired of is having to instruct in it all the time, and the loud ass props. My Bose broke last month.

[DE727UPS]

"but the only two things I'm getting tired of is having to instruct in it all the time"

Now you know how a Capt at Gulfstream feels.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Because they are the only legacy actually hiring????

Who cares, they're not the only mainline carrier hiring. Who cares if you get hired into a legacy or not; they all pay the same, and in fact Southwest is paying more than the legacy carriers anyways.

If you want to use the argument that we need to get with the program and sell our souls to fly an RJ, then you've gotta get with the program and realize that the legacy carriers are, for the most part, the place to NOT be right now.