Humbled

[pipepatrol]

So let me first introduce myself, my name is Ray. I'm 25, got all my ratings at ATP, and now I'm flying pipeline patrol with ~500 hrs. I've been reading this forum for years and feel like I know a lot of you guys, even though I've never posted before.

Anyway, I decided to post this because lately I've been really frustrated. Ever since I got my new job flying 172's, it seems like I cant land the freakin' plane without some bounce or hitting the deck too hard. My company has 4 planes and I land 3 of them well, but the one that Im regularly in seems to be more unstable and less forgiving than the others. The stall warning horn seems to go off at a much higher airspeed than usual, which may be throwing me off. Ive tried coming in at various airspeeds, and reducing the power to idle at various times. But still it seems like I rarely get in a nice landing. My SE training with ATP was inadequate, but it still seems that with all the landings I've done I shouldnt be having so much difficulty. I dont ever remember having troulbe landing when I was a student pilot. But who knows, maybe flying isnt for me, if I cant even land a 172 consistently at this stage. Any advice you guys have??

Thanks!

Ray

[meritflyer]

I'd say grab another CFI, one who is familiar with 172s, and go flying for a little while doing some touch and gos. We all need a little help sometimes.

I think that would be the best fix.

[Ralgha]

Don't sweat it so much. ATP is great for passing the checkride, but sucks for learning to fly.

My suggestion is to go up with a CFI in a 172 for some pattern work and see if they can help you out.

[USMC-SGT]

Definately go up with another CFI in a 172, preferably similiar in model and year to the one that you are flying.

I am sure you already do this but to me one of the most important things to a nice landing is the stabilized approach.

Find what works for you in this skyhawk and repeat it every time. Is it 2300 RPM's on downwind and flaps to 10? Is it 1500 RPM's abeam? Flaps to 20 on Final 76 knts? Maybe 70 Knts, maybe 85 Knts find what works best for you in this plane and do it consistently every single time the exact same way.

as for the bounce of the hard landing, are you coming in to steep and stalling high in the flair? It could be numerous factors but i think an EXPERIENCED CFI can help you out. Find one that does it because they enjoy it and have alot of experience, maybe a chief pilot at a reputable school.
Another thought on the hard landing is you are possibly coming in not steep enough and are not flaring enough. You could be just flying it onto the runway which is usually a decent bump when it hits the tarmac.

All is not lost,
flying is not for you if you do not like flying, not because you are having a hard time. If you love it and enjoy what you are doing then the skill will come, everyone has a slump sometimes no matter what they are doing.

[desertdog71]

I've flown a couple of those retire "Pipeline" Planes, believe me, its probably not you.

Just kidding.

Only thing I can suggest is bumping up the Airspeed a bit on Final. I fly an older C172K and a C172M The K you want to fly a faster final, simply because the wing is different and generates a bit less lift.

The C172M will tend to float where as the C172K will tend to drop. Its just a matter of getting the feel for your plane is all. They all react a bit differently.

[Hootie]

who gives a sh#t, If that plane aint being cooperative, you need to punish that SOB.

[ajf005]

It could also be a problem with the airspeed indicator. If the plane doesn't get the 24 month pitot static check since your flying vfr, that may be the problem?

[pilot602]

Read that aircraft's POH/AFM, fly it like it tells you to (all those numbers and airspeeds in there usually work out) and then do what it takes to get the damned thing to do what you want.

[USMC-SGT]

Originally Posted by Hootie9750

who gives a sh#t, If that plane aint being cooperative, you need to punish that SOB.

Now that is what i am talking about, some real advice.

F the POH it was written back in 1965 when the plane was fresh at the factory with a 150 lb test pilot on a clear cool day with a ten thousand foot runway that was paved with gold.

[88MPH]

If you've got enough RW, make a soft every #### time! Then slowly trim the length of time the throttle's in.

And it may seem like an obvious answer, but the biggest thing to keep me from putting dents in the runway was FULL FLAPS all the time, even in x-winds. lower stall speed = more time to work the flare.

[pilot602]

Originally Posted by USMC-SGT

Now that is what i am talking about, some real advice.

F the POH it was written back in 1965 when the plane was fresh at the factory with a 150 lb test pilot on a clear cool day with a ten thousand foot runway that was paved with gold.

That might be true ... but you'd be a pretty poor pilot if you can't fly a 65kt final, with full flaps.

Those numbers are somewhere to start and they were devised by folks smarter than you and I and half this board put together.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by USMC-SGT

Find what works for you in this skyhawk and repeat it every time. Is it 2300 RPM's on downwind and flaps to 10? Is it 1500 RPM's abeam? Flaps to 20 on Final 76 knts? Maybe 70 Knts, maybe 85 Knts find what works best for you in this plane and do it consistently every single time the exact same way.

I agree with what you say about trying to be consistent, but I don't agree with all this specific stuff about certain RPMs and airspeeds around the pattern.

I've found flying a 172 (or any light single, for that matter), especially for landings, is all about feel. When I teach landings, I don't ever give specific numbers. I give ranges, such as pulling the power back to 1500-1700 RPM, or getting the plane slowed to 65-70, but I never say, "Set flaps here, fly this exact airspeed, with this exact power setting."

What happens when you have a variable, like wind? Or what happens when somebody makes a mistake and needs to correct for getting too high or too low? If anything out of the ordinary happens, those specific numbers aren't going to work. You have to develop a feel for the plane.

Originally Posted by USMC-SGT

as for the bounce of the hard landing, are you coming in to steep and stalling high in the flair? It could be numerous factors but i think an EXPERIENCED CFI can help you out. Find one that does it because they enjoy it and have alot of experience, maybe a chief pilot at a reputable school.

This is a very good idea.

Originally Posted by USMC-SGT

All is not lost,
flying is not for you if you do not like flying, not because you are having a hard time. If you love it and enjoy what you are doing then the skill will come, everyone has a slump sometimes no matter what they are doing.

Very true!

[dbrault17]

Try checking your left foot while flaring. I had a run of about 20 hours where i couldnt land softly (way after i had my license). One day with an instructor he pointed out I was pressing on the left rudder ever so gently which was just enough chatter the teeth on touchdown. After that everything worked out fine. Now as an instructor when im doing checkouts i notice alot of people somehow get the habit of yawing to the left. I think its a just from being so tense you dont even relize it. Mentally tell yourself when you pass the numbers on final to relax rudder pressure. So far it has worked everytime.

[pilot602]

Originally Posted by jrh

I agree with what you say about trying to be consistent, but I don't agree with all this specific stuff about certain RPMs and airspeeds around the pattern.

I've found flying a 172 (or any light single, for that matter), especially for landings, is all about feel. When I teach landings, I don't ever give specific numbers. I give ranges, such as pulling the power back to 1500-1700 RPM, or getting the plane slowed to 65-70, but I never say, "Set flaps here, fly this exact airspeed, with this exact power setting."

What happens when you have a variable, like wind? Or what happens when somebody makes a mistake and needs to correct for getting too high or too low? If anything out of the ordinary happens, those specific numbers aren't going to work. You have to develop a feel for the plane.

I dunno, don't see anything wrong with giving fixed numbers, points, etc. It's a place to start. You can't teach people to deal with variables until they have the "status quo" down pat. I always used to give numbers etc. but always temper it with "this is just a starting point. If it takes 'x' to do 'y' then do 'x'."

[jrh]

Originally Posted by pilot602

I dunno, don't see anything wrong with giving fixed numbers, points, etc. It's a place to start. You can't teach people to deal with variables until they have the "status quo" down pat. I always used to give numbers etc. but always temper it with "this is just a starting point. If it takes 'x' to do 'y' then do 'x'."

Sure, you have to start somewhere, but I don't think specific numbers are the way to do it.

Of course I use numbers when teaching, but I make it very clear there is no magical number that will work. I give ranges for everything (airspeed, power, sink rate, bank angle, etc.), but try to emphasize how things are interrelated and will need to be adjusted based on lots of circumstances. The ultimate key to good landings is in developing good judgement and the ability to see ahead of what is happening, but not necessarily hit exact targets around the pattern.

I've flown with way too many new pilots who fly like robots because they think if they pull the power back to exactly 1700 RPM, and pitch for exactly 70 knots, and turn base when exactly at a 45 degree angle to the runway, everything will be fine. Then they're surprised and confused when they end up high, or overshoot final, or whatever. They've been so trained that "this is the way you fly the pattern," they can't handle anything out of the ordinary (strong wind, loaded to max gross weight, etc.). There are so many variables to deal with every time around the pattern, it's hardly worth stressing over specific targets.

Of course, I also don't believe in the "good patterns lead to good landings" philosophy....wait, I take that back...I believe in that philosophy, but only for student pilots first learning to land. I'd say for most licensed pilots, a good landing is decided in the last 50 feet. How they get to the runway doesn't matter, as long as they fly correctly for the last few feet...and the only way to fly the last few feet is by feel.

[Bandit_Driver]

Is this 172 lighter or heavier than the rest?

If you have the runway, try a faster approach speed.

You can also try a faster approach speed and use less than full flaps. Doesn't the K model have flaps 40? I would use something less.

[pipepatrol]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

Is this 172 lighter or heavier than the rest?

If you have the runway, try a faster approach speed.

You can also try a faster approach speed and use less than full flaps. Doesn't the K model have flaps 40? I would use something less.

It seems to be lighter, but also tends to sink much faster than the other models that I've flown. Ive always used 40 deg flaps, unless the x-wind component is >15 kts. I never really considered using less than full flaps if there isnt much wind, but I suppose like 20 deg for a normal landing might help it float a little more?

I guess when I come in at a faster airspeed thats when I tend to bounce more frequently and at a slower airspeed I tend to touchdown harder more frequently.

Our runway also isnt level at the approach end, which is complicating matters. Not sure if thats part of the reason thats throwing off my judgement, if its airspeed, flaps, the point where I reduce power, how quickly I reduce power, etc.

I would like to go up with another CFI, but I was hoping a little discussion on here might help instead, because it would cost me 2 solid days of work to go up with a CFI for an hour.

Anyway, thanks for the replies guys. Hopefully Im able to figure this thing out before I shoot myself!

[jonnyb]

You shouldn't need to look at your "speed" through the airspeed indicator, you should be looking outside. It's unfortunate that so many schools and instructors are teaching primary students to fly by use of the flight instruments. A student should be proficient at flying the aircraft in all configuations and phases of flight with the instrument panel covered before being introduced to the flight instruments. This is so critical and yet so many instructors fail to teach this.

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by pipepatrol

. My company has 4 planes and I land 3 of them well, but the one that Im regularly in seems to be more unstable and less forgiving than the others. The stall warning horn seems to go off at a much higher airspeed than usual, which may be throwing me off. Ive tried coming in at various airspeeds, and reducing the power to idle at various times. But still it seems like I rarely get in a nice landing.
Ray

In older airplanes the control cables can stretch and get out of rig...making them feel 'different' than what you may be used to. Also, as I understand, re-rigging flight controls cables is a bit of an art...and a poorly done job can make an airplane feel strange.

I think I understand what you may be talking about...the controls are not very responsive to your inputs. The joys of flying old airplanes.

Have you checked the CG? Is it far forward? I discovered in my airplane that I was running out of elevator in the flare...I wanted about another inch of back pressure in the flare...it would be full aft...and I was stubbing it in. I put a 35# dumbell in the baggage compartment...and I started making great landings. (This typically only happened with two adults in the front seat.)

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Might the main landing gear be slightly "sprung"? I instructed in a 172 with that problem and it made for some very horrific landings. Landing 3 point was almost a necessity because any more nose up would just about cause a tail strike, and you sure as hell couldn't see over the nose.

[Cruise]

Originally Posted by Hootie9750

who gives a sh#t, If that plane aint being cooperative, you need to punish that SOB.

Is this the "fly it like you stole it" method?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Cruise

Is this the "fly it like you stole it" method?

would that be related to the "rental power" method of flying as well?

[jtrain609]

I love renter power.

Me: So you know you're at 2,700 RPM right now eh?
Student: Yeah
Me: That's pretty hard on the engine right?
Student: Yeah
Me: So you just climbed 200' off your altitude and you're having problems controling the aircraft because you're not in the proper cruise configuration AND you're hurting the engine eh?
Student: Oh

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by John Herreshoff

I love renter power.

Me: So you know you're at 2,700 RPM right now eh?
Student: Yeah
Me: That's pretty hard on the engine right?
Student: Yeah
Me: So you just climbed 200' off your altitude and you're having problems controling the aircraft because you're not in the proper cruise configuration AND you're hurting the engine eh?
Student: Oh

Yep. Exactly why I won't buy and airplane and lease it back to a school.