Perspective and "knowing" your audience

Doug Taylor · May 17th, 2006, 19:40

So we had a jumpseater yesterday and he was from "Airline B" that had a respectable presence in SLC for a period of time but in the past couple of years had stopped operating out of that hub.

We were talking about layovers in the west. Places like Kalispell, Great Falls, Bozeman, etc. Some great stories exchanged about places to eat, watering holes, local attractions, etc.

Then he got a little "comfortable".

"Those were great until "Airline A" took them away from us, I can't believe it. (expletives deleted)"

I looked over at the skipper because I knew that comment would require a little 'edumacation'.

"I'm sure it feels like a bum deal that "Airline A" took the routes away from "Airline B", but do you know who originally flew those routes? Not "Airline A" or "Airline B".

You just have to know your audience, folks!

B767Driver · May 17th, 2006, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

So we had a jumpseater yesterday and he was from "Airline B" that had a respectable presence in SLC for a period of time but in the past couple of years had stopped operating out of that hub.

We were talking about layovers in the west. Places like Kalispell, Great Falls, Bozeman, etc. Some great stories exchanged about places to eat, watering holes, local attractions, etc.

Then he got a little "comfortable".

"Those were great until "Airline A" took them away from us, I can't believe it. (expletives deleted)"

I looked over at the skipper because I knew that comment would require a little 'edumacation'.

"I'm sure it feels like a bum deal that "Airline A" took the routes away from "Airline B", but do you know who originally flew those routes? Not "Airline A" or "Airline B".

You just have to know your audience, folks!

We get that all the time here in CVG. We ride the same employee bus with CMR employees. They are always complaining about CHQ and Mesa taking away their flying, with a half dozen DL pilots sitting in the same bus. Clueless to the fact that they've been doing it to us for a decade.

Unbelievable.

Dugie8 · May 17th, 2006, 21:00

I think it is funny that any airline, or pilots for said airline(s), think they "own" a route or series of routes. Then proceed to get pisssy because someone else is flying these routes. When did we get to South Central, and were is all the graffiti?

kellwolf · May 17th, 2006, 21:40

What it boils down to is no one technically "takes" routes, they're "given" by management to other people. It's not like Mesa or CHQ's pilot groups are plotting against XJT or PCL. If anyone, I blame the bean counters that make the lowball offers.

Doesn't really matter if you're CHQ, Skywest, PCL, XJT, <insert your regional here>, we're all in the same boat.

amorris311 · May 17th, 2006, 22:33

what is the deal with jumpseating? if you are a regional airline pilot for say comair can you ride in the cockpit of a delta flight? were you in the cockpit while having this heated discussion or was it at the gate small talk? i dont want to "hyjack the thread" but it is an honest question for a wannabe.

Kingairer · May 17th, 2006, 22:40

Yes You can.

Doug Taylor · May 17th, 2006, 23:50

Dood, it's a little easier to talk about 'stuff' from the line when you don't ask company specific questions about the involved parties IN a potentiall controversial thread.

Alchemy · May 18th, 2006, 01:04

If I want to talk to a mainline pilot about one of these issues I will usually wait until they're on one of our jumpseats, not the other way around. When I'm riding the jumpseat I keep my mouth shut. A good crew will usually keep the conversation from ever heading in that direction in the first place. It's always in poor taste to complain. No one likes to hear it really.

Heck, I try not to even talk about airline politics with even my own crew for more than a few minutes on any given 4 day pairing. It's simply not worth talking about.

Doug Taylor · May 18th, 2006, 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alchemy

Heck, I try not to even talk about airline politics with even my own crew for more than a few minutes on any given 4 day pairing. It's simply not worth talking about.

A smart man.

FlyChicaga · May 18th, 2006, 11:02

I hate talking about that stuff at work either, it just gets to be a drag. Especially with those "doomsday" folks who can't imagine this career ever being worth it. Just is depressing, because I love my job, and then I have to spend time listening to all the reasons I shouldn't love it. That said, I've found when conversations head this direction, I'm normally siding with those on the mainline side of the house... in fact, on a jumpseat once with a major (not our mainline partner) I mentioned how I wish it was back to the days "pre-RJ" so we could have more top-end jobs to aim for, and the crew actually couldn't believe I actually thought like that and wasn't blowing smoke.

wheelsup · May 18th, 2006, 11:09

A little history:

Back when US Air was in bk court for the second time, things were looking pretty dim. Eastshore Holdings invested $125 million in them to prop them up until the merger with America West could go through. One could say Eastshore Holdings helped save US Air from CH 7. Eastshore is an investment company formed by the owners of Air Wisconsin to invest in US Air. Not only that, but the $125 million came from the concessions Air Wisconsin pilots gave to try and keep the united flying.

Because of this 'investment', Air Wisconsin was granted 70 RJ slots with US Air, placed in PHL, DCA, and ORF. ORF was a Piedemont base, and as such AWAC essentially forced its closure.

There was PDT pilot on an Air Wisconsin JUMPSEAT, complaining about how AWAC sucks, how much PDT pilots HATE Air Wisconsin, and what a horrible job Air Wisconsin is doing. This person was lucky the Air Wisconsin CA didn't throw him/her off the airplane right then and there.

Bitch about a company while you're at a crashpad, not while you're in someone else's "house" IMO.

pavelump · May 18th, 2006, 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellwolf

If anyone, I blame the bean counters that make the lowball offers.

Doesn't really matter if you're CHQ, Skywest, PCL, XJT, <insert your regional here>, we're all in the same boat.

Are we? Was ACA? AWAC? <insert regional who has "lost" flying to wal-mart due to not being able/willing to "compete">

Couldn't one, for sake of argument, put some of the blame on the pilots who have agreed to fly for lowball wages and work rules that allow said managements to come up with the afformentioned lowball offers?

I know for a fact that a lot of pilots at these companies don't really care what they're paid or how many days off they get, etc., etc. They have their eyes on the prize, a major airline job, no matter what they have to do or how it may affect anybody else.

I used to think that scope was total bs, but I am starting to believe that if we (the regionals) continue to fly larger and larger aircraft for rock bottom prices, that we will be "stuck" working the very jobs that we want at the regional level instead of the major level with the associated regional pay and QOL that we previously didn't care about...

PS, I don't want to seem like I'm upset at anyone here (especially you kellwolf), just putting it out there for discussion.

Dugie8 · May 18th, 2006, 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by pavelump

Are we? Was ACA? AWAC? <insert regional who has "lost" flying to wal-mart due to not being able/willing to "compete">

Couldn't one, for sake of argument, put some of the blame on the pilots who have agreed to fly for lowball wages and work rules that allow said managements to come up with the afformentioned lowball offers?

That's an interesting argument. Are you willing to fall on your sword when it is your regionals turn over the barrel for being a "bottom feeder"?

I know for a fact that a lot of pilots at these companies don't really care what they're paid or how many days off they get, etc., etc. They have their eyes on the prize, a major airline job, no matter what they have to do or how it may affect anybody else.

I used to think that scope was total bs, but I am starting to believe that if we (the regionals) continue to fly larger and larger aircraft for rock bottom prices, that we will be "stuck" working the very jobs that we want at the regional level instead of the major level with the associated regional pay and QOL that we previously didn't care about...

PS, I don't want to seem like I'm upset at anyone here (especially you kellwolf), just putting it out there for discussion.

Discuss

wheelsup · May 18th, 2006, 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by pavelump

Couldn't one, for sake of argument, put some of the blame on the pilots who have agreed to fly for lowball wages and work rules that allow said managements to come up with the afformentioned lowball offers?

I disagree, while pay scales are a factor, I don't believe they keep a company from "low balling" an offer for feeder service. There is quite a bit more to it than pilot salaries at an airline.

Skywest has grown quite a bit, they have a great "contract", QOL, pay scale (as far as regionals go), etc.

pavelump · May 18th, 2006, 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelsup

There is quite a bit more to it than pilot salaries at an airline.

Skywest has grown quite a bit, they have a great "contract", QOL, pay scale (as far as regionals go), etc.

I agree with that... I like SkyWest. In fact, I'd like to work there, can you get my resume in? hehe (no, seriously...

)

From an outside perspective, SkyWest seems to have "happy" employees. Heck, the other day I was trading emails with a newer SkyWest pilot who said that he's considering retiring there. Now, this is pure conjecture on my part, but I don't think that you'll get the same statement from a Mesa pilot, for example. They're CEO even said somewhere not long ago that the great thing about Mesa is that pilots don't stick around long which keeps their costs so low. Why do Mesa pilots want to leave so badly? Is it just low pay? Their pay isn't that bad...

While I agree that there is more to it than pilot compensation, that is a huge part of what an regional has to consider when deciding what sort of offer they can make to a major for the feed.

We (Eagle) are constantly being told by our CEO that we need to increase productivity, cut costs, implement PBS, etc. if we want to continue to be the "preferred feeder" to American Airlines. And we're owned by AMR, not that that really amounts to a hill of beans. I'm all for being as efficient as possible, but in reality with the senority of our workforce, there really isn't much that we can do to reduce our costs below that of TSA, CHQ, Regions (American Connection) or any other airline that will someday bid for the flying. Why are we so damn senior? While we're maybe not the best place to work, people are generally content (or apathetic) with what we have (unless you read eaglelounge). The hourly rate isn't everything.

SkyWest has made some good business decisions and maybe even had some good luck. Unfortunately, happy employees want to stay around and some day SkyWest may have the same "problem" as Eagle. I hope not. I'd like to believe that companies value their employee's experience level. But that might just be dreaming... Maybe by that time the airline industry will have changed significantly.

Where was that crystal ball that I had...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dugie8

That's an interesting argument. Are you willing to fall on your sword when it is your regionals turn over the barrel for being a "bottom feeder"?

I guess that I'd have to cross that bridge when/if I came to it, but since we aren't allowed to fly for anyone but AA, it really isn't an issue. We could however continue to errode what we have in an effort to secure our feed to AA until we get to a point where nobody would want to work here or stay here and then, yes, I would "fall on my sword". I like my job, but I'm not willing to do it if that means that my life will otherwise suck. That's why I didn't apply to such a regional in the first place...

Und du?

[/hijack]

Anyway, I think that I've gotten way off the topic of this thread so I'll just stop.

Sorry.

I love jumpseating. You never know what kind of crew your going to get. I jumpseated the other day on an airline that rhymes with Chewnited and the captain was very vocal and super opinionated about everything. I just did my best to stay out of it. "Oh, look at that pretty cloud!". I could see that the FO was a little uncomfortable and when the CA went to the lav, he leans over and says, "This is the first trip of a 4 day, I don't know if you noticed, but the Captain talks a lot..." haha

The best jumpseating experience that I had was on an AA 777. The captain was on his first IOE flight and the IOE captain was giving him all kinds of tips on the FMS. It was pretty cool to see some of what that airplane can do.

Dugie8 · May 18th, 2006, 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by pavelump

I guess that I'd have to cross that bridge when/if I came to it, but since we aren't allowed to fly for anyone but AA, it really isn't an issue. We could however continue to errode what we have in an effort to secure our feed to AA until we get to a point where nobody would want to work here or stay here and then, yes, I would "fall on my sword". I like my job, but I'm not willing to do it if that means that my life will otherwise suck. That's why I didn't apply to such a regional in the first place...

Und du?
Absolutely, probably (well a fair chance) that I might have to cross that bridge in the next few months, and I am prepared to do it. You seem to have missed my point. Mesa, TSA, et al, didn't erode, they are what they are, and Eagle may have to face that someday too since your contract is so long, that you will be the bottom of the industry while other regionals get better contracts, IF times improve. [hypothetical] When, say PDT, comes knocking saying that you (eagle) have such a worthless contract (current one you have now) that you are dragging down the industry, are then going to fall on your sword to make a point to management? Unlikely scenario, but fairly close to what is happening now.
[/hijack]

Discuss

wheelsup · May 18th, 2006, 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dugie8

[hypothetical] When, say PDT, comes knocking saying that you (eagle) have such a worthless contract (current one you have now) that you are dragging down the industry, are then going to fall on your sword to make a point to management?

Why would he care what PDT [insert company] thinks about him. It's his own business.

If he's not happy with the compensation, benefits, etc. of the job, he will strike (if available) or quit.

Doug Taylor · May 18th, 2006, 13:21

A "PBS style system" is pretty darned cool but it depends on:

1. The actual software package.
2. Training.
3. Extensive testing and oversight.

PBS is a misnomer for the most part. It's like saying "potato". Do you mean mashed, boiled, steamed, fried, jullienne, au gratin, scalloped, sliced?

The premise is all the same, but all "PBS style" systems are not created equal.

kellwolf · May 18th, 2006, 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by pavelump

Couldn't one, for sake of argument, put some of the blame on the pilots who have agreed to fly for lowball wages and work rules that allow said managements to come up with the afformentioned lowball offers?

Depends on the regional. If said pilot group takes a pay cut, and the CEO/upper management go ahead and give themselves a big bonus for "cutrting costs," then I'd have to say no.

You also have to take into consideration the FAs (I'm sure Comair is gonna try to pin the fact that they can't stay competitive on the FAs not wanting to give on the contract), fuel costs, route structures, aircraft type, etc. I'm under the impression that management's job is to do the best they can with what they have and work out profitible deals. Lately at most airlines, it seems management's job is to put on a dog and pony show to get employees to take pay cuts instead of doing what they're paid to do.....manage. Hell, I could probably negotiate a deal with a major airline if I had jack for labor costs. The real challenege comes when you don't have much room to give on costs and still have to close the deal. In my mind, I think (or hope) that's what the guys upstairs get paid the big bucks to do. Unfortunately, it hasn't seemed that way in the industry lately.

Quote:

I know for a fact that a lot of pilots at these companies don't really care what they're paid or how many days off they get, etc., etc. They have their eyes on the prize, a major airline job, no matter what they have to do or how it may affect anybody else.

That's a very sad truth. Those very people don't realize that with every concession they take in order to get those precious hours and that quick upgrade, they may be sacrificing the very job they're gunning for. Why fly a DC-9 carrying 70 people from MSP-JFK when you can do it on an brand new CRJ-700 for a fraction of the cost?

Quote:

I used to think that scope was total bs, but I am starting to believe that if we (the regionals) continue to fly larger and larger aircraft for rock bottom prices, that we will be "stuck" working the very jobs that we want at the regional level instead of the major level with the associated regional pay and QOL that we previously didn't care about...

Unless you wanna fly for NWA, then it might be better to stay with the regional.

Quote:

PS, I don't want to seem like I'm upset at anyone here (especially you kellwolf), just putting it out there for discussion.

No worries. I like it when we can have discussions in threads without hearing "You stole our flying!" or "Your regional sucks!" Main reason why I never post on Flightinfo. I've got a big Red Tail target on my chest.....

mtsu_av8er · May 18th, 2006, 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Discuss

Oh, once the discussion gets good and deep and you run out of rants, you'll just quit anyway . . .

Dugie8 · May 18th, 2006, 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Why would he care what PDT [insert company] thinks about him. It's his own business.

If he's not happy with the compensation, benefits, etc. of the job, he will strike (if available) or quit.

EXACTLY! That is what is happening now however. I have heard, on more than one occaision, that people think no one should be accepting jobs at Mesa because of A, B, or C. It really is no one elses business what XYZ airlines contract is, if you are working at another regional, who cares, if you are looking for a job and don't like said contract, don't apply there, but those in question should not sit on mount on high and preach to others about not taking this job, or how they should quit to "better" the idustry.

For so long regionals/commuters were considered a stepping stone, a right of passage if you will, and now that they have become long term, everyone is all up in arms and militant about the QOL and pay, wait just a minute ago, it was a right of passage??

Most talk about going on from regionals to mainline for bigger and better, whatever, but while mainline carriers have shrunk, regionals have grown, it is almost a self defeating practice, and I don't have the answer.

wheelsup · May 18th, 2006, 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dugie8

and I don't have the answer.

Personally, I think the answer is a return of profits. Remember that outrageous (IMO) contract got UAL to sign back pre-911? I remember reading an article that UAL mgmt said even at that current time of rock bottom Jet A costs and a booming economy, the business model couldn't support it.

Just like the stock market, there was a "correction" in the aviation industry. In fact it's still probably going on.

Once profits return, unions will have more leverage toward pay. In fact, US Air pilots are already starting to get a little antsy with their companies profit of $5 million this past quarter.

Dugie8 · May 18th, 2006, 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Personally, I think the answer is a return of profits. Remember that outrageous (IMO) contract got UAL to sign back pre-911? I remember reading an article that UAL mgmt said even at that current time of rock bottom Jet A costs and a booming economy, the business model couldn't support it.

Just like the stock market, there was a "correction" in the aviation industry. In fact it's still probably going on.

Once profits return, unions will have more leverage toward pay. In fact, US Air pilots are already starting to get a little antsy with their companies profit of $5 million this past quarter.

The only way, and this is my non-business anything opinion, is one major, AA, UA, USAir, etc needs to go under and those seats need to be NOT replaced. Then the remaining majors need to raise ticket prices to a level that will show a 7-9% net profit on 75% load factors. Like I said thought, utopia does not exist.

/note
please do not take this as me advocating more pilots needing to loos their jobs, just a purely numbers way of looking at the problem.

wheelsup · May 18th, 2006, 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dugie8

The only way, and this is my non-business anything opinion, is one major, AA, UA, USAir, etc needs to go under and those seats need to be NOT replaced. Then the remaining majors need to raise ticket prices to a level that will show a 7-9% net profit on 75% load factors. Like I said thought, utopia does not exist.

/note
please do not take this as me advocating more pilots needing to loos their jobs, just a purely numbers way of looking at the problem.

I would say yes, I agree with you, EXCEPT that load factors are all over 80% right now, across the board. UAL ran 85% last month, USA ran 82%. There is no reason why they shouldn't be making money off that. I believe there is room to raise prices and mediate the raising price of gas right now. I read an article that said that for every $10/bbl increase, CAL has to raise prices by $4.

Once the LCC's fuel hedges start running low, then there will exist a level playing field. SWA has raised its prices already. CAL annouced another hike of $2 today, on top of May 2nd's $2. As long as the fuel supplies are constant with no disruptions in the future we may be ok for the time being...

pavelump · May 18th, 2006, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dugie8

EXACTLY! That is what is happening now however. I have heard, on more than one occaision, that people think no one should be accepting jobs at Mesa because of A, B, or C. It really is no one elses business what XYZ airlines contract is, if you are working at another regional, who cares, if you are looking for a job and don't like said contract, don't apply there, but those in question should not sit on mount on high and preach to others about not taking this job, or how they should quit to "better" the idustry.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/university-of-north-dakota/26027-sama-and-go-jets.html

Really?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dugie8

For so long regionals/commuters were considered a stepping stone, a right of passage if you will, and now that they have become long term, everyone is all up in arms and militant about the QOL and pay, wait just a minute ago, it was a right of passage??

Dugie8, I have read your replies a few times over and I'm having a litte bit of a hard time understanding your position. There also seems to be a little bit of vinegar in your posts and I apologize if you feel that I am preaching to you or others. This is just my opinion. The only reason that I mentioned that I work for Eagle is to give a little bit of reference for where I'm coming from. In other words, I have done some research and more importantly, I did quite a bit of research into various airlines before I started sending out applications. I didn't saturate every airline with my resume. Was I limiting my options? Absolutely. But personally (<-- please note that word) I didn't care to work at an airline solely for the rite of passage with no regard to my compensation (including $$$, QOL, blah blah blah).

Of course I would like to move on to bigger and better things some day. Who wouldn't? Why does that necessarily mean that things have to suck now and in the future for regional airlines? You say that people are just now getting all up in arms and militant (bit of an exaggeration) about QOL and pay now that regionals are turning more long term. Why shouldn't they? Do you like being ##### on? I don't. Why should those who get hired after me have to suffer because I wanted to jump ahead now by accepting a crappy deal?

The truth is that most new hires don't have a great understanding of work rules, compensation, per diem, etc., etc. It's hard to blame them, but at the same time the internet has made it easier than ever to get this kind of information. The unfortunate reality (imo) is that most of them wouldn't care anyway as long as they can stop being a CFI, or whatever they're doing so that they can start their dream job. Yes, it is a job. But more than that, it is a professional career and I think that it should be treated as such.

Why should I care if Joe Blow gets a job at Airline B or what their contract is? Peripherally, I don't, but eventually, it WILL effect me and perhaps you too. I may be forced to give up compensation, I might be furloughed because our airline couldn't compete with Airline B that has 2 year captains, or our next contract may be based on the very contract that I sought to avoid by not accepting a position at Airline B in the first place. This might happen to you too. Probably sooner than Eagle though because, as you remarked, our "worthless contract" has a 16 year term. But hey, there's always bankruptcy so maybe that will become amendable sooner too...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Most talk about going on from regionals to mainline for bigger and better, whatever, but while mainline carriers have shrunk, regionals have grown, it is almost a self defeating practice, and I don't have the answer.

I had to read this sentence a few times, and it still confuses me. What is the self defeating practice? The fact that regionals are or will be absorbing "main line" flying? That the majors are shrinking and therefore will require fewer pilots? If that's the case and we're all doomed to the minor leagues, then shouldn't we fight for CBAs (or contracts) that augment the regional pilots' total compensation and QOL and resist the temptation to work for those that promise quick upgrades in trade for poor compensation/QOL? Workers of the world unite! hahaha

I mentioned before that I am considering SkyWest (unfortunately they're not considering me, bah dum boom! I'll be here all week, try the veal

). Some consider them to be just as much a bottom feeder as Mesa (that might be a stretch). So maybe I'm just full of it. But I wouldn't knowingly go to a place where there is a record of low pay, bad work rules, unhappy people, and unscrupulous management just so that I could upgrade faster. I think that it sets a precedence for other regionals to practice that is generally unhealthy for our profession and our future as airline pilots.

Just my opinion.

May 17th, 2006, 19:40	#1
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,217 Blog Entries: 1	Perspective and "knowing" your audience So we had a jumpseater yesterday and he was from "Airline B" that had a respectable presence in SLC for a period of time but in the past couple of years had stopped operating out of that hub. We were talking about layovers in the west. Places like Kalispell, Great Falls, Bozeman, etc. Some great stories exchanged about places to eat, watering holes, local attractions, etc. Then he got a little "comfortable". "Those were great until "Airline A" took them away from us, I can't believe it. (expletives deleted)" I looked over at the skipper because I knew that comment would require a little 'edumacation'. "I'm sure it feels like a bum deal that "Airline A" took the routes away from "Airline B", but do you know who originally flew those routes? Not "Airline A" or "Airline B". You just have to know your audience, folks! __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

May 17th, 2006, 21:00	#3
Dugie8 Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: KRST Posts: 1,819	Re: Perspective and "knowing" your audience I think it is funny that any airline, or pilots for said airline(s), think they "own" a route or series of routes. Then proceed to get pisssy because someone else is flying these routes. When did we get to South Central, and were is all the graffiti? __________________ Aircraft without engine(s) prohibited... -KMIA 10-9

May 17th, 2006, 21:40	#4
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,870	Re: Perspective and "knowing" your audience What it boils down to is no one technically "takes" routes, they're "given" by management to other people. It's not like Mesa or CHQ's pilot groups are plotting against XJT or PCL. If anyone, I blame the bean counters that make the lowball offers. Doesn't really matter if you're CHQ, Skywest, PCL, XJT, <insert your regional here>, we're all in the same boat. __________________ "I'm The Doctor, by the way. Run for your life!"

May 17th, 2006, 22:33	#5
amorris311 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles soon to be phx Posts: 2,551	Re: Perspective and "knowing" your audience what is the deal with jumpseating? if you are a regional airline pilot for say comair can you ride in the cockpit of a delta flight? were you in the cockpit while having this heated discussion or was it at the gate small talk? i dont want to "hyjack the thread" but it is an honest question for a wannabe.

May 17th, 2006, 22:40	#6
Kingairer Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer Posts: 3,190	Re: Perspective and "knowing" your audience Yes You can. __________________ "I do not proofread"

May 17th, 2006, 23:50	#7
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,217 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Perspective and "knowing" your audience Dood, it's a little easier to talk about 'stuff' from the line when you don't ask company specific questions about the involved parties IN a potentiall controversial thread. __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

May 18th, 2006, 01:04	#8
Alchemy Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austin, TX, USA Posts: 1,800	Re: Perspective and "knowing" your audience If I want to talk to a mainline pilot about one of these issues I will usually wait until they're on one of our jumpseats, not the other way around. When I'm riding the jumpseat I keep my mouth shut. A good crew will usually keep the conversation from ever heading in that direction in the first place. It's always in poor taste to complain. No one likes to hear it really. Heck, I try not to even talk about airline politics with even my own crew for more than a few minutes on any given 4 day pairing. It's simply not worth talking about.

May 18th, 2006, 11:02	#10
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,833	Re: Perspective and "knowing" your audience I hate talking about that stuff at work either, it just gets to be a drag. Especially with those "doomsday" folks who can't imagine this career ever being worth it. Just is depressing, because I love my job, and then I have to spend time listening to all the reasons I shouldn't love it. That said, I've found when conversations head this direction, I'm normally siding with those on the mainline side of the house... in fact, on a jumpseat once with a major (not our mainline partner) I mentioned how I wish it was back to the days "pre-RJ" so we could have more top-end jobs to aim for, and the crew actually couldn't believe I actually thought like that and wasn't blowing smoke. __________________ "Anyone can do the job when things are going right. In this business we play for keeps." Ernest K. Gann

May 18th, 2006, 11:09	#11
wheelsup Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: _ Posts: 5,498	Re: Perspective and "knowing" your audience A little history: Back when US Air was in bk court for the second time, things were looking pretty dim. Eastshore Holdings invested $125 million in them to prop them up until the merger with America West could go through. One could say Eastshore Holdings helped save US Air from CH 7. Eastshore is an investment company formed by the owners of Air Wisconsin to invest in US Air. Not only that, but the $125 million came from the concessions Air Wisconsin pilots gave to try and keep the united flying. Because of this 'investment', Air Wisconsin was granted 70 RJ slots with US Air, placed in PHL, DCA, and ORF. ORF was a Piedemont base, and as such AWAC essentially forced its closure. There was PDT pilot on an Air Wisconsin JUMPSEAT, complaining about how AWAC sucks, how much PDT pilots HATE Air Wisconsin, and what a horrible job Air Wisconsin is doing. This person was lucky the Air Wisconsin CA didn't throw him/her off the airplane right then and there. Bitch about a company while you're at a crashpad, not while you're in someone else's "house" IMO. __________________ "It takes just as much time to be nice to someone as it does to be a jerk."

May 18th, 2006, 13:21	#18
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,217 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Perspective and "knowing" your audience A "PBS style system" is pretty darned cool but it depends on: 1. The actual software package. 2. Training. 3. Extensive testing and oversight. PBS is a misnomer for the most part. It's like saying "potato". Do you mean mashed, boiled, steamed, fried, jullienne, au gratin, scalloped, sliced? The premise is all the same, but all "PBS style" systems are not created equal. __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

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