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April 14th, 2005, 18:56
| #1 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Peeking in your window
Posts: 1,190
|  Who is responsible?
Quick question: I always thought that the plane is under the captains authority once he signs off, etc. Now, if the plane is being pushed back and it strikes something (other plane, jetway) and causes damage....who is responsible? The captain because it is under his authority, or the ramper who was pushing him back? Just a question that has been bugging me. Thanks!!  |
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April 15th, 2005, 22:24
| #3 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: ATL
Posts: 782
| Re: Who is responsible?
It's really the rampers fault. From the cockpit you really have no control during the pushback. You can't see behind you, and in most planes you can't even see the guy pushing you back. In the CRJ the only thing you can see from the cockpit is the last 3-5 feet of the wing and that's it. I would assume that in the MD80/MD88 you can't even see that with as far back as that wing sits. |
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April 16th, 2005, 02:06
| #4 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 13,870
 | Re: Who is responsible?
Ramper's fault. The captain has final say, but the ramp crew is responsible for the safety of the aircraft while it is at the gate or until the tow bar is disconnected. You hit something while you're pushing back, you'll at LEAST get a stern talking to and a drug test.
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April 16th, 2005, 08:07
| #5 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone
Posts: 5,810
 | Re: Who is responsible?
Well something's changed since I retired then. The captain was at fault when I was around. It was the captain's responsibility to make sure you had a tug driver and two wing walkers. Happened to a CRJ at STL one day. Being pushed out one rampler looked away and a mx van backed in to the tail. The captain didn't get in any trouble with the company, but I here he almost got an incident on his record. He had to hire a lawyer to prevent the company from "self disclosing" his incident to the FAA. (this was not Mesa either, another company that flew CRJs to STL in 2000 - that should narrow it down LOL. You know it couldn't be Mesa because USAirways took away our jetways!) |
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April 16th, 2005, 15:06
| #6 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Peeking in your window
Posts: 1,190
| Re: Who is responsible?
Interesting!  |
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April 16th, 2005, 16:29
| #7 |
| Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 13,870
| Re: Who is responsible?
[ QUOTE ] Well something's changed since I retired then. The captain was at fault when I was around. It was the captain's responsibility to make sure you had a tug driver and two wing walkers. [/ QUOTE ] At XJT it's the ground crew's responsibility to have everyone they need. You hit something, it's your butt, not the flight crews. After all, they're not the ones controlling the plane (other than the engines starting up). SWA only uses one wing walker, and it's the ground crew's responsibility as well. I'm guessing Mesa has the same policy now, but I don't know for sure. Seems kinda wrong to get an incident on your record (or nearly) if you don't have control of the plane's movement. Then again not much makes sense when it comes to the airlines and the FAA anyway.  |
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April 16th, 2005, 22:20
| #8 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,833
| Re: Who is responsible?
[ QUOTE ] The captain didn't get in any trouble with the company, but I here he almost got an incident on his record. [/ QUOTE ] So wait. The captain didn't get in trouble with the company, and ALMOST got an incident on his record? Sounds like blame didn't fall upon the captain then. Did you have more experiences than this one to base the comment that "captains take the blame" during pushback? From everything I've been told, it's the rampers responsibility and should they do something in error, they are responsible for that error. |
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April 17th, 2005, 06:59
| #10 |
| Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone
Posts: 5,810
| Re: Who is responsible?
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The captain didn't get in any trouble with the company, but I here he almost got an incident on his record. [/ QUOTE ] So wait. The captain didn't get in trouble with the company, and ALMOST got an incident on his record? Sounds like blame didn't fall upon the captain then. Did you have more experiences than this one to base the comment that "captains take the blame" during pushback? From everything I've been told, it's the rampers responsibility and should they do something in error, they are responsible for that error. [/ QUOTE ] He avoided the blame by hiring a lawyer. Cost him about $2500. In this case NOBODY was awarded an incident. I'd like to hear how he managed that. Maybe I'll send him an email. As for other situations, I don't really have that much push back experience, since I only flew the 737 for 9 months at Midway. The CRJ was usually a taxi in, taxi out situation w/Mesa since USAirways mainline did NOT want to "waste a jetway" on a CRJ. Exception: Milwaukee hooked us up to a jetway. But as for wing walking and TAXI incidents - Here is one I remember clearly - at MCO gate 34 in 1997. I was still FO. I watched as a Beech 1900D was being "marshalled" in between another Beech on row 1, and 2 Dash 8s parked at an angle back in row 2. The captain wisely asked for wing walkers. The marshaller thought he saw the left wingtip go by the Beech, so he turned to look at the wing walker on the right wing tip. He initially did not see the left wing walker frantically waving crossed wands. By the time he turned and looked, the left wing tip had touched the plastic tail cone on the front row Beech. Everybody gave crossed wands at that point. The captain shut down the aircraft. Somebody called the FAA (thanks a lot buddy) and they called the NTSB. Before you know it there are TV crews everywhere ("tonight on channel 2 ... and Mesa Airlines woes continue ...") After all the froofraw and report taking, I was standing with the captain and noticed that the plastic tail cone was made of that flexible rubbery type of plastic. "You know, I bet if we push the plane back that thing pops right good as new." The NTSB did not want to let us near the plane. Finally one of our senior pilots, a "flying lawyer" convinced the NTSB that they had no business near here anyway as there were no injuries or significant damage. They took a bunch of pictures and left. The senior NTSB guy there was a real .... well let's just say I bet his name was Richard Head. The three of us pushed back on the 1900 - it moved 2 feet and "pop!" the tail cone was good as new. Not even a scratch. At the end of it all though, the Captain AND the FO were "carpet danced" by the company and the captain received an incident on his record. The wing walkers received nothing. |
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April 17th, 2005, 11:41
| #11 |
| Agent Smith  | Re: Who is responsible?
Hired a lawyer? Was this at a non-ALPA carrier? Personally, if I get a call from the feds, the next call I make is to ALPA legal. Plus, most cases I've heard of the Feds going after a pilot who the company doesn't feel has any fault, sometimes they'll usually put their legal dogs on the case. |
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April 17th, 2005, 12:29
| #12 |
| Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone
Posts: 5,810
| Re: Who is responsible?
You know, it was an APLA carrier Doug. I think you can figure out who I mean - based at CVG. Maybe he got the lawyer from ALPA national, but I know he still paid $2500 out of his own pocket. Maybe it wasn't covered under the legal policy. |
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April 17th, 2005, 12:51
| #13 |
| Agent Smith | Re: Who is responsible?
I think four different airlines have crew bases at CVG, but the whole story sounds a little strange, especially having to retain his own legal representation. With all due respect, are you 100% sure of the details? |
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April 17th, 2005, 13:09
| #14 |
| Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone
Posts: 5,810
| Re: Who is responsible?
No I'm not. I'm checking on the details now. It was reported to me by a third party that he spent the money. I'll have some details for you soon. Sorry about that chief. |
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April 17th, 2005, 17:46
| #15 |
| Agent Smith | Re: Who is responsible?
Honestly, don't worry about it. It just doesn't make a lot of sense, but the weather's too nice to bother anyone about a forum matter... Wait... What the heck am I doing on the forum if the weather outside is so nice? See ya! |
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April 17th, 2005, 19:45
| #16 |
| Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone
Posts: 5,810
| Re: Who is responsible?
Well I got an email back: [ QUOTE ] John at the time I was not covered by ALPA, since I was in the training department. Although I called ALPA for legal help, and they did refer me to a good attorney, I was not able to use their legal aid fund since I was technically 'management.' It doesn't bother me much because the $2250 I spent was well worth it to avoid an incident on my record. Thanks, Capt. O------- M--------- CL-65 C----- [/ QUOTE ] yeah it was a nice cool day here in FL today too - got up to about 75. Great outside! |
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April 17th, 2005, 22:09
| #18 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: KSAN
Posts: 392
| Re: Who is responsible?
[ QUOTE ] I always thought that the plane is under the captains authority once he signs off, etc. Now, if the plane is being pushed back and it strikes something (other plane, jetway) and causes damage....who is responsible? [/ QUOTE ] If the plane is being pushed back, it's under the rampers control. (On our pushbacks, the Capt will release control of the a/c to the ground crew for pushback by saying "Brakes released, your aircraft" to the driver".) A plane taxiing is under the Captains control, even though the rampers are supposed to be responsible for wingtip clearance. There's a case where they can try to nail them both. We had a wing tip brush recently and both were counseled. |
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April 18th, 2005, 03:56
| #19 |
| Agent Smith | Re: Who is responsible?
Even at my airline. Pretty much we do a lot of weird pushback stuff depending on where they want the tail and it's absolutely impossible in some circumstances to be able to anticipate how they're going to push the aircraft. There was even a case where a captain had a clearance to taxi to the gate, but then a catering truck entered the 'clear zone' outside the view of the cockpit and the aircraft impacted the vehicle. According to what i heard, they interviewed the crew for about two minutes and that was about it. At least to see the wingtip in an MD-88, I've got to open my window, lean out at least as far as my waistline and crane my neck backwards. But then, I'm a whopping 5'9 with shoes on... |
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April 18th, 2005, 07:31
| #20 |
| Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone
Posts: 5,810
| Re: Who is responsible?
[ QUOTE ] Huh? A NLSI (non-seniority list) instructor? Still doesn't make a lot of sense unless the airline allows NLSI's to fly the line which is doofus. [/ QUOTE ] Who says he was Non seniority list? He has a seniority #. When I was in training at Mesa I was considered a "mgt pilot." I didn't lose my seniority number though ... |
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April 18th, 2005, 08:36
| #21 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,007
| Re: Who is responsible?
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Huh? A NLSI (non-seniority list) instructor? Still doesn't make a lot of sense unless the airline allows NLSI's to fly the line which is doofus. [/ QUOTE ] Who says he was Non seniority list? He has a seniority #. When I was in training at Mesa I was considered a "mgt pilot." I didn't lose my seniority number though ... [/ QUOTE ] Yeah that's common in the regional world - we have a ton (well maybe not a ton but quite a few) "mgmt" pilots that still have their numbers. John - 75 in Orlando??? You have any jobs open down there? It's gonna' be 85 up here today and it's not even May yet! Cooter |
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April 18th, 2005, 17:26
| #23 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer
Posts: 3,190
| Re: Who is responsible?
Doug, I have had stories about bad representation at my company by our union. Some folks have even signed up for the AOPA legal service, with great results.
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April 18th, 2005, 18:17
| #24 |
| Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone
Posts: 5,810
| Re: Who is responsible?
[ QUOTE ] Yeah that's common in the regional world - we have a ton (well maybe not a ton but quite a few) "mgmt" pilots that still have their numbers. John - 75 in Orlando??? You have any jobs open down there? It's gonna' be 85 up here today and it's not even May yet! Cooter [/ QUOTE ] Cooter you let me know the minute you want to get out of aviation |
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April 18th, 2005, 21:21
| #25 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,007
| Re: Who is responsible?
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Cooter you let me know the minute you want to get out of aviation [/ QUOTE ] Dude - with the addition of a wife last summer and a kid this coming fall my priorities in life have drastically changed - I'm waaaaaaaaaaaay waaaaaaaaaaaaay past the point of wanting to get out of aviation. I just need to find something that I can make what I'm making now and I'm all set. Cooter |
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