New ATL Procedure????

[cime_sp]

I've been based in ATL as an ASA pilot for over 3 years now but I heard something coming in today that I've never heard before. We were on the Honie arrival and assigned ILS PRM 9R. As we were doing that I heard 2 Delta flights and 1 AirTran flight be assigned 8L. Approach told them to "fly the 8L transition procedure"?????? Huh? I've NEVER heard that and couldn't find anything on our charts/plates. Is it something new? Company specific?One of the Delta flights seemed to be caught a little off guard as well.

Please advise...

[surreal1221]

Hmm. . .not too sure. I don't see any east RWY tracks, it's all just one after WOLMN for 10/9R/8L.

I'll obviously defer to one of the current ATC guys, but I don't recall "transition" being the appropriate phraseology for this type of situation.

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by cime_sp

I've been based in ATL as an ASA pilot for over 3 years now but I heard something coming in today that I've never heard before. We were on the Honie arrival and assigned ILS PRM 9R. As we were doing that I heard 2 Delta flights and 1 AirTran flight be assigned 8L. Approach told them to "fly the 8L transition procedure"?????? Huh? I've NEVER heard that and couldn't find anything on our charts/plates. Is it something new? Company specific?One of the Delta flights seemed to be caught a little off guard as well.

Please advise...

Look on the HONIE 5 STAR http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0803/00026HONIE.PDF . When issued the 26R transition from HONIE for example at WOLMN you will then track to NOFIV for the north downwind to to 26R as opposed to staying on the south downwind for 27L or 28 when in trips. This is only done on the "long side" of the airport IE the side where you are going to fly the downwind. Not done on the "short side" IE the base leg side.

[cime_sp]

Originally Posted by ATLTRACON

Look on the HONIE 5 STAR http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0803/00026HONIE.PDF . When issued the 26R transition from HONIE for example at WOLMN you will then track to NOFIV for the north downwind to to 26R as opposed to staying on the south downwind for 27L or 28 when in trips. This is only done on the "long side" of the airport IE the side where you are going to fly the downwind. Not done on the "short side" IE the base leg side.

Oh...OK. Makes sense now. You'll have to excuse me I've been in training for the last two months where they don't teach any of this stuff!!!! I've missed out on all this "Descend via" and mandatory speed stuff.

One more question. Why is there very little consistency with regard to how speeds are assigned on these arrivals. It seems as though the controllers are almost intentionally vague as to whether they want to speeds or not and as I'm sure you've noticed it makes the pilots constantly ask whether or not they want the speeds.

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by cime_sp

Oh...OK. Makes sense now. You'll have to excuse me I've been in training for the last two months where they don't teach any of this stuff!!!! I've missed out on all this "Descend via" and mandatory speed stuff.

One more question. Why is there very little consistency with regard to how speeds are assigned on these arrivals. It seems as though the controllers are almost intentionally vague as to whether they want to speeds or not and as I'm sure you've noticed it makes the pilots constantly ask whether or not they want the speeds.

It's all a ruse. We don't really know what we are doing. I personally find it to be a pain in the $^% that these speeds are on the STAR. My goal is to put you 5 miles in trail all the way down the downwind. I tell the pilots coming in on the longside "delete the speed" or "maintain 300 kts UNTIL FURTHER ADVISED". The next thing you know you are slowing at the required areas or asking me whether I want you to slow. UNTIL FURTHER ADVISED!!!! I would not ask. Until the controller specifically says something about speed (IE UNTIL FURTHER ADVISED MAINTAIN 280 kts), fly the speeds that are on the STAR.

[cime_sp]

Originally Posted by ATLTRACON

It's all a ruse. We don't really know what we are doing. I personally find it to be a pain in the $^% that these speeds are on the STAR. My goal is to put you 5 miles in trail all the way down the downwind. I tell the pilots coming in on the longside "delete the speed" or "maintain 300 kts UNTIL FURTHER ADVISED". The next thing you know you are slowing at the required areas or asking me whether I want you to slow. UNTIL FURTHER ADVISED!!!! I would not ask. Until the controller specifically says something about speed (IE UNTIL FURTHER ADVISED MAINTAIN 280 kts), fly the speeds that are on the STAR.

Haha...it's funny you say that because I got chewed out by an approach controller for doing just that!!!! First approach (128.0?) told us "310kts until advised" and then switched us over to Final (127.25?) . Upon reaching DOEVR (210kts depicted) the controller asks how fast we're going.

Us: "Uh, last assigned was 310 kts till advised"

Approach: "What the heck are you doing 310 for?"

Us:" Sir, we were told 310 till advised by the last controller"

Approach:" Doesn't the chart say 210???.....damn I hate these things"

Us: "Yeah, us too.....by the way, we're confused, do you want us to slow or not???????"

Approach: "sure...whatever.....(laughing)"


This was all so much easier when you just assigned us speeds and headings!!!! It seems like neither of us knows what the other wants or is expecting right now. It's like the person who designed them never had to do either of our jobs!

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by cime_sp

Haha...it's funny you say that because I got chewed out by an approach controller for doing just that!!!! First approach (128.0?) told us "310kts until advised" and then switched us over to Final (127.25?) . Upon reaching DOEVR (210kts depicted) the controller asks how fast we're going. Couldn't have been on Final (127.25) at DOEVR. DOEVR is either a PECHY or FALCN arrival fix. At DOEVR the Final controller would not have had you on his scope yet.

Us: "Uh, last assigned was 310 kts till advised" Hope you weren't below 10,000 ft.

Approach: "What the heck are you doing 310 for?"

Us:" Sir, we were told 310 till advised by the last controller"

Approach:" Doesn't the chart say 210???.....damn I hate these things"

Us: "Yeah, us too.....by the way, we're confused, do you want us to slow or not???????"

Approach: "sure...whatever.....(laughing)" Laughing is a sign of senility setting in. It's rampant


This was all so much easier when you just assigned us speeds and headings Speeds yes, headings NO. A much better feed to the final on the STAR. The reason we try to take the speeds off is that we want to get you to the airport ASAP. 'Course when PRMing you're going out to just inside the IAF anyway !!!! It seems like neither of us knows what the other wants or is expecting right now. It's like the person who designed them never had to do either of our jobs! The person that designed the new STARS never asked for input because now that the FFA has enacted the Nontract they can do whatever they want, not brief us until a few days before and WE make it work to the best of our ability.

[cime_sp]

Thanks for the replies Tracon....it's good to hear we're not the only ones who get left out in the dark by the higher-ups. Turns out they decided to change all of our flight numbers to 4-digits today. They didn't bother to tell us anything about it!!! They sent out an email sometime this afternoon after it all started. haha

You gotta love this industry don't you???