Theives vs Newbies

[surreal1221]

Then what you need to do, is tell EVERYONE you know, and making DAILY phone calls to your elected official's offices.

You are re-inventing the wheel, by proposing something that NATCA has already been doing for over two decades. Be it a phone tree, or e-mail distribution.

Sign up your family members. Encourage them to take an active part in protecting your profession by utilizing the NATCA system.

You, and them, make daily phone calls to your elected official's offices. That's not just federal either, include your state and local officials in your phone calls.

It takes dedication, but it can be done. Just don't re-invent the wheel please. I know exactly what the force of a majority can develop and cause. Don't you doubt that for a second.

[JKoffler44]

I believe this is the website by the NATCA: http://www.unionvoice.org/natca/home.html

[Justin538]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Then what you need to do, is tell EVERYONE you know, and making DAILY phone calls to your elected official's offices.

You are re-inventing the wheel, by proposing something that NATCA has already been doing for over two decades. Be it a phone tree, or e-mail distribution.

Sign up your family members. Encourage them to take an active part in protecting your profession by utilizing the NATCA system. I don't have 50,000 family members. I have 2, so I'm gonna shoot for a bigger audience

You, and them, make daily phone calls to your elected official's offices. That's not just federal either, include your state and local officials in your phone calls. I'm going to use my pen, it weilds more power

It takes dedication, but it can be done. Just don't re-invent the wheel please. This bothers me. Why not? What harm can having the general public beg congress to make a change do? I question your motive for saying that. I know exactly what the force of a majority can develop and cause. Don't you doubt that for a second.

It is not reinventing the wheel. NATCA has tried to mobilize it's members and anyone who asks. It is not the union's responsibility to get everyone. I don't get your "the union will do it" attitude.

The people I want to get involved fly on a plane regularly for work. They've spent a night in a hotel in a strange city because their plane was delayed. Maybe they spent a few hours in the plane on the tarmac waiting to leave. They have relatives that fly regularly and worry about their safety.

Can't you see? I'm not talking about getting the pissed of controller to help out. We know they're pissed, congress knows they're pissed. I'm talking about getting the average traveller or tax payer who expects more out of their government. They are the one's who can make a difference.

Not reaching out to them because it would be "reinventing the wheel" (which by the way, this isn't an invention, it has been used for many things, most recently Barack Obama's campaign), would be by far the stupidest thing to do.

Unless you're not on the side of the controller.

[surreal1221]

Ah, I like your motive.

But do you not think that NATCA has already tried to get the public to view the present situation our way?

In the forms of spending LARGE sums of money, much more than you or any other individual with a website, blog, or smaller e-mail distribution list could ever imagine spending on a very strong PR campaign.

Trouble is, the flying public DOES NOT CARE about NATCA, or the FAA, or (honestly) the real elephant in the room (metal touching metal).

So, like I said, I like your enthusiasm, but leave the PR campaign to the people with the resource to dedicate. Partake though that medium, call your elected officials daily, and for the love of pete, tell everyone you know to also partake through the same medium used.

One other issue with trying to take this on in your own little world, or in a collective of little websites/blogs, is that then TWO different messages, potentially more, are making it into the legislative.

Which, believe it or not, does not do anything to help, but rather reduces the effectiveness of any mass message distribution. As then, the legislator (if he/she even bothers to read it, or is even handed the message from an intern / page) realizes, "wait a second, why am I getting three (insert number) different, not even in line with, statements about the same thing?" Next question they ask, is who the contact is for the profession that deals with whatever issue it is that is being written in about. Well, bingo. They are then notified that NATCA is the applicable labor association for the controller workforce.

Now of course, a further negative ramification of this is that it may appear that some are trying to degrade or reduce NATCA's strength. We wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that NATCA is a weak association, as it is very much not that. We also wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that NATCA needs to be removed. One must thread lightly in that regard.

Stick with the people who have a history of performing these things, and then follow up with the individual activist tactics that must be utilized to drive an effective campaign.

NATCA is a very valuable resource, and an extremely effective medium for change. Trouble is, we don't have the right elected officials in office to implement the changes we (NATCA) and the AFL-CIO are suggesting.

Give it time.

[Justin538]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Ah, I like your motive.

But do you not think that NATCA has already tried to get the public to view the present situation our way?

In the forms of spending LARGE sums of money, much more than you or any other individual with a website, blog, or smaller e-mail distribution list could ever imagine spending on a very strong PR campaign.

Trouble is, the flying public DOES NOT CARE about NATCA, or the FAA, or (honestly) the real elephant in the room (metal touching metal).

So, like I said, I like your enthusiasm, but leave the PR campaign to the people with the resource to dedicate. Partake though that medium, call your elected officials daily, and for the love of pete, tell everyone you know to also partake through the same medium used.

One other issue with trying to take this on in your own little world, or in a collective of little websites/blogs, is that then TWO different messages, potentially more, are making it into the legislative.

Which, believe it or not, does not do anything to help, but rather reduces the effectiveness of any mass message distribution. As then, the legislator (if he/she even bothers to read it, or is even handed the message from an intern / page) realizes, "wait a second, why am I getting three (insert number) different, not even in line with, statements about the same thing?" Next question they ask, is who the contact is for the profession that deals with whatever issue it is that is being written in about. Well, bingo. They are then notified that NATCA is the applicable labor association for the controller workforce.

Now of course, a further negative ramification of this is that it may appear that some are trying to degrade or reduce NATCA's strength. We wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that NATCA is a weak association, as it is very much not that. We also wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that NATCA needs to be removed. One must thread lightly in that regard.

Stick with the people who have a history of performing these things, and then follow up with the individual activist tactics that must be utilized to drive an effective campaign.

NATCA is a very valuable resource, and an extremely effective medium for change. Trouble is, we don't have the right elected officials in office to implement the changes we (NATCA) and the AFL-CIO are suggesting.

Give it time.

By far the dumbest thing I've heard all day, and it's 11pm here.


Starting an online campaign from the FAA's customers to renegotiate with air traffic controllers diminishes from NATCA's cause? Are you high?

The only reason I could assume that you don't agree with starting something outside of NATCA is either A. You're against controllers, or B. You're a pilot, and the resolution of this means there's a greater chance it would cost you more money to use their services.

Trying to talk people out of petitioning their government is practically a crime. Or it should be. I would use stronger language, but I'm assuming cursing isn't allowed on this message board, so I will refrain. I will however disagree with you as fiercely as possible about this.

I was going to highlight the parts of that post that I thought were ludicrous but I disagree with everything, and not just a little bit. I hold your post as an example of the exactly wrong attitude to have.

[surreal1221]

Use stronger language.

One, you have some searching of my historical posts here at JC, specifically in the ATC forums, to figure out what my real history is.

Two, you can say all these things that you'd like to do until you're blue in your face. Trouble is, the things you are talking about - are not effective means of directing change at the legislative branch.

Three, I'm telling you this because I know from my own experience. I've attempted to do just the things you recommended.

Four, I'm also telling you the things that I'm telling you because I have a background in trade unionism, communications, public relations, and internet distribution lists.

But obviously you know much more than me.

Good luck though. Let me know how your little campaign works out. I'd like to know what results you have netted in 6, 12, and 18 months. If you make it that far.

[Justin538]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Use stronger language.

One, you have some searching of my historical posts here at JC, specifically in the ATC forums, to figure out what my real history is. I don't really care

Two, you can say all these things that you'd like to do until you're blue in your face. Trouble is, the things you are talking about - are not effective means of directing change at the legislative branch. Yes they are.

Three, I'm telling you this because I know from my own experience. I've attempted to do just the things you recommended. Your failures won't dictate mine. You must have quite the ego. "If I can't do it, or anything, nobody can!"

Four, I'm also telling you the things that I'm telling you because I have a background in trade unionism, communications, public relations, and internet distribution lists. Don't know how lists really matter.

But obviously you know much more than me.

Good luck though. Let me know how your little campaign works out. I'd like to know what results you have netted in 6, 12, and 18 months. If you make it that far. It will probably be in your local newspaper.

The world needs a few more of you.

Honestly, if the controllers have been fighting this since '06 and nothing has happened other than having everything shoved down their throat, it would be a horrible idea to ask for the help of the general public. Your pessimism is what's wrong with the world. I bet you tell people not to vote. "you'll never beat Karl Rove, so don't even try".

So, I'm done with you, but when you have to pay higher user fees because we got something done, it will be your fault you didn't stand up for your side of the issue.

[queeno]

sorry dude but sureal is correct on this , no one will give a ##### untill some one DIES (and it dosnt take a mid air , just think what a 30lb drink cart can do if it lands on some ones head after a negative G TCAS event)

[Justin538]

Originally Posted by queeno

sorry dude but sureal is correct on this , no one will give a ##### untill some one DIES (and it dosnt take a mid air , just think what a 30lb drink cart can do if it lands on some ones head after a negative G TCAS event)

Ok, looks like I'm on my own. You guys are the most uninspired people I've ever met.

This will be the last post from me here.

Good Luck to everybody in the hiring process

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Justin538

Ok, looks like I'm on my own. You guys are the most uninspired people I've ever met.

This will be the last post from me here.

Good Luck to everybody in the hiring process

Peace Out.

But if you do return.

First you say the world needs a few more of me, all after never providing any sort of honest feedback to the discussion.

I had hoped that it was obviously clear to you that many of us here are strong trade unionist, and advocate the use of NATCA's strength of many over another attempt by a group of few.

You took that to mean don't do it. Do it, knock yourself out.

But the issue is that your results will be small compared to the daily progress made by NATCA.

NATCA hasn't been doing this only since 2006 either. Which goes to inficate how little experience you hold when it comes to your campaign. Some NATCA, AFL CIO, and FAA research on your part is due. Going all the way back to Bush v.1.0.

But anyway. . .peace out, and please recognize the strength that NATCA holds for the future of the profession.

The uninspired NATCA members are fighting everyday to improve the profession, so I would actually consider
them all to be pretty damn inspired.

[Beehive]

Originally Posted by Justin538

Ok, looks like I'm on my own. You guys are the most uninspired people I've ever met.

This will be the last post from me here.

Good Luck to everybody in the hiring process

I'm with you Justin. Like it was wrote before in this thread, the lights are on but no ones home.

I like how expressing my concerns to congress has become reinventing the wheel and the hell with fighting a war from more than one front!
And I wonder who stopped the rain

[kcarpentier]

Originally Posted by Justin538

Ok, looks like I'm on my own. You guys are the most uninspired people I've ever met.

This will be the last post from me here.

Good Luck to everybody in the hiring process

I can't believe you're going to roll over and play dead so easily!!! (if only I could get my dogs to do the same thing!)

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Beehive

I'm with you Justin. Like it was wrote before in this thread, the lights are on but no ones home.

I like how expressing my concerns to congress has become reinventing the wheel and the hell with fighting a war from more than one front!
And I wonder who stopped the rain

I don't think anyone ever said to not write congress. . .but if you are, besides just sending a few letters in an unorganized fashion - use NATCA's system. As they are the officially recognized lobby group for the ATC profession. Believe it or not, they have come a long way since the IWR were first instated. We have a long way to go, but nothing will change until we get a new(er) administration that recognizes the work that is done by controllers.

But, you have a history of not really listening or reading what is written here. So I won't assume you can understand / comprehend what has been written.

[Beehive]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

I don't think anyone ever said to not write congress. . .but if you are, besides just sending a few letters in an unorganized fashion - use NATCA's system. As they are the officially recognized lobby group for the ATC profession. Believe it or not, they have come a long way since the IWR were first instated. We have a long way to go, but nothing will change until we get a new(er) administration that recognizes the work that is done by controllers.

But, you have a history of not really listening or reading what is written here. So I won't assume you can understand / comprehend what has been written.

Thanks buddy! I can't wait to join such a great union with donaters like you who are willing to explain the system with such a great attitude towards applicants such as myself.

surreal1221- If NATCA was to get a deal done next week that meets your standards, would you apply to become a controller(if the FAA was accepting applications)?

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Beehive

If NATCA was to get a deal done next week that meets your standards, would you apply to become a controller(if the FAA was accepting applications)?

No, I wouldn't.

I already applied once, was offered a position following completion of my CTI education. Unfortunately for the FAA, they offered the position shortly after they imposed their work rules.

Sorry, I'm not going to goto work for an organization that lacks the ability to negotiate in good faith.

Nevertheless, since I've turned down an offer - one will - more than likely - never be offered to me again.

I'm getting established in a career that'll offer me a greater return on my investment over my career. Because yes, I do care about how much I make. I have a family to take care of, as well as a good quality of life to provide for them. My standard was not going to be met on 30-89K a year. I still have a great love of the national airspace system, but I do not regret for a second turning down the job offer. It's unfortunate that the prior CTI education won't be used, but I'm not too worried about that.

Plus, I'm not too eager to goto work and work with people who are clueless to the inner workings of the FAA. Which is one thing I partially blame NATCA for. NATCA has yet to be effective at educating the OTS individuals, prior to getting to OKC. We needed to educate these people prior to them even taking the AT-SAT, not to discourage them, but to just impart some knowledge of why the FAA is having to hire them, scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Perhaps then people would have realized, "You know what. . .a lot of people are being screwed by this agency. Will I be next?"

Anyway - it's been a long winded reply to a simple question. So I'll repeat if, if the FAA were to offer me another position. . .I'd once again say no.

[queeno]

even if NATCA tryed to warn the OTS, many dont care and just want to get a foot in the door and they think that pay and rules will get better.well they are just falling into the FAAs hands because the FAA will just tell the public thay have enought applicants, like i said the OTSs are there own worst enemys.welcome to the C pay scale.

[SoonerATC]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

I'm getting established in a career that'll offer me a greater return on my investment over my career. Because yes, I do care about how much I make. I have a family to take care of, as well as a good quality of life to provide for them. My standard was not going to be met on 30-89K a year.

That's a pretty high standard, Surreal. I can see 30K not meeting your standard, but not even 89K? Maybe it's because I plan to live in OK, but 89K would be a darn good way of life for my family. Just curious what you're doing now? I was in the military for a few years and have my masters degree, but I found it incredibly difficult to find a job after getting out of the military. I always felt it was because the 2 years of military experience was the ONLY professional work experience I had and in general, civilians tend not to see the applicability of military experience to their requirements.

not to discourage them, but to just impart some knowledge of why the FAA is having to hire them, scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I take issue with this, as I have every other time it has been mentioned. Hiring OTS is not "scraping the bottom of the barrel". Why do we keep having to remind everyone that the post-strike hires in the 80s were ALL off the street hires. CTI was not conceived until the early 90s. I also think its been well established that CTI does not = good controller. I work at the FAA Academy and can tell you that I have seen some POOR excuses for ATCs roll through here who were CTI grads.

I did not graduate from a CTI school but I am confident I have that "it" factor and would be glad to go toe to toe with any CTI grad.

[queeno]

you do? that has yet to be seen.and you will not see $89000 working at OKC or TUL for 15 to 20 years. you have to work a lot of traffic to get that piss poor amount of pay.

[SoonerATC]

Do you even read what people say before your knee jerk reactions fly off your keyboard? Go back and read what I wrote then see if your reply was anywhere close to relevant to what I said.

[Beehive]

Originally Posted by queeno

you will not see $89000 working at OKC or TUL for 15 to 20 years. you have to work a lot of traffic to get that piss poor amount of pay.

Under the current pay scale that is the tapped-out amount for a level 10 facility(not-including locality). It seems like good money but i've never worked a day of traffic in my life. If I make it to S56 and feel that much money is not worth it i'll walk.

A controller told me on friday that this is a good job, it'll be a great job if/when they raise the pay.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by SoonerATC

That's a pretty high standard, Surreal. I can see 30K not meeting your standard, but not even 89K? Maybe it's because I plan to live in OK, but 89K would be a darn good way of life for my family. Just curious what you're doing now? I was in the military for a few years and have my masters degree, but I found it incredibly difficult to find a job after getting out of the military. I always felt it was because the 2 years of military experience was the ONLY professional work experience I had and in general, civilians tend not to see the applicability of military experience to their requirements.

Right now, I fly for a living. First year FO for an ALPA represented 121 company.

Prior to that, I was a flight instructor. Prior to that, I was meteorologist with a DoD agency.

I've heard of people having trouble getting employment after leaving the military. For a number of reasons, one of them being the inability for them to adjust. Sure, some employers like hiring ex-military members because of their (usually) good work ethic. But some military members have been in too long, and are unable to adjust back to civilian life. Not saying that is you, just a general observation.

Nevertheless, you may think 89k is a good enough amount of money to be making for the rest of your lifetime, but not me. I have 40+ years to go, and making 89k a year would have been the most that I could have respectfully figured I'd end up making. Prior to the imposed work rules, my return on my ATC education investment was well into the lower 100k (125-130k range) over my lifespan as an ATC'r.

So on one hand, I put in hard work while the FAA was not hiring OTS individuals, only to then to see work rules, benefits, and pay substantially decreased. Sorry, I'm not one to play that game.

My family, and the future that I can provide to them is much more important to me than doing my "dream" job.

I'd love to work traffic, but I'm not going to work it for peanuts, 6 days a week, mandatory overtime, and 10-12 hour shifts.

Already did the 12 hour shifts stuff in the military - I'm done sitting in a chair for 12 hours behind a computer monitor - unless I was going to compensated well for my knowledge and skills.

So like I said, 89k. . .that's nice money, but I refuse to limit my earning potential just to work traffic, and put myself and my family through the headache of working for the FAA.

Originally Posted by SoonerATC

I take issue with this, as I have every other time it has been mentioned. Hiring OTS is not "scraping the bottom of the barrel". Why do we keep having to remind everyone that the post-strike hires in the 80s were ALL off the street hires. CTI was not conceived until the early 90s. I also think its been well established that CTI does not = good controller. I work at the FAA Academy and can tell you that I have seen some POOR excuses for ATCs roll through here who were CTI grads.

I did not graduate from a CTI school but I am confident I have that "it" factor and would be glad to go toe to toe with any CTI grad.

I'm sure you might have that "it" factor. Everyone should obviously think that about themselves.

CTI also does not = good controller. You're correct about that.

But, while the CTI program has it's flaws, it was a program that actually provide a great deal of education about the factors (human, and machine) that allow controllers to develop the skills that they can use for the rest of their life. Combined with a somewhat excellent training program in OKC, and excellent front line OJT experience, those guys will be some of the best controllers in this country.

I wouldn't be so quick to be willing to go toe to toe with a CTI grad. Which, reminds me. Don't start to think that everyone really cares where you came from. Your other controller next to you just wants to make sure you hand that target off before his boundary, at altitude, at airspeed, and spaced properly.

They don't give a #### if your OTS, or CTI. CTI students have their faults, some wash out at OKC, some wash out at their facilities, but far more OTS are washing out.

That's just the numbers side of it.

So sure, the post-strike hires after 81 were OTS'rs, but some of them *gasp!* had ATC experience in other arenas. Military, etc.

Also, airspace congestion, and sector spaces were substantially smaller during that time period. The two decades that followed allowed all of them to develop their skills at a pace that ran right next to the development of our airspace system and infrastructure, and the increased demand placed on it.

The OTS hires today are being thrown right into the beast, large sectors, increased capacity, due to a lack of staffing ability by the FAA.

My scraping the bottom statement is a pretty easy example of supply and demand. Supply of qualified individuals for the job = low, Demand = High. So, much like the airlines, requirements are being decreased to put warm bodies into classes, seats, and behind radar scopes. If the FAA wanted the best and brightest to come work traffic, they'd offer a better compensation package (pay, work rules, benefits) than the DoD (both contracted DoD controllers, and military controllers).

That's not happening though, so the FAA is having to look elsewhere to band-aid their staffing shortcomings. That location is off-the-street.

Which, get in anyway you can. Knock your socks off, but I think what most of us here are saying is at least listen to what is being said by those who are actually behind the scopes right now. These guys know what their talking about, and have no patience of kids coming in and treating them like ####.

Sit down, shut up, and listen. It's real simple. See how the machine works, read what is happening to those who not being able to put food on the table, not being able to pay bills due to the lack of compensation. Especially with $100bbl of oil, EVERYTHING costs more. Food, gas, lawn care, house fixes, etc.

You guys should be demanding better compensation, as should EVERY employee in this country.

It's amazing that a one time, well paid profession where the income figures were way above the inflation adjustments year after year, is now down to more than 25% below inflation adjustments from year after year.

It's just mind boggling when you actually take the time and run the numbers, just amazing that anyone would be willing to work for such. But hey, like you said. . .89k would make your day.

Not me, and I suppose I'm following my boyhood "dream" of flying for a living. The ATC was a more rational decision during my teenage years and early adulthood. Things happen for a reason though, and I couldn't be any more happy to fly for a living. I just hope the future controllers of the world don't let me down and I end up coming in contact with another plane.

Anyway - another long-winded post. I'm off to bed. Good luck.

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Don't start to think that everyone really cares where you came from. Bingo. I don't care if you're from Mars, Shut up, don't be a know-it-all and listen.Your other controller next to you just wants to make sure you hand that target off before his boundary, at altitude, at airspeed, and spaced properly.

They don't give a #### if your OTS, or CTI. CTI students have their faults, some wash out at OKC, some wash out at their facilities, but far more OTS are washing out.

That's just the numbers side of it.

So sure, the post-strike hires after 81 were OTS'rs, but some of them *gasp!* had ATC experience in other arenas. Military, etc.

Also, airspace congestion, and sector spaces were substantially smaller during that time period. The two decades that followed allowed all of them to develop their skills at a pace that ran right next to the development of our airspace system and infrastructure, and the increased demand placed on it.

The OTS hires today are being thrown right into the beast, large sectors, increased capacity, due to a lack of staffing ability by the FAA. Welcome to Atlanta TRACON...now plug in and welcome to the Rock.

My scraping the bottom statement is a pretty easy example of supply and demand. Supply of qualified individuals for the job = low, Demand = High. So, much like the airlines, requirements are being decreased to put warm bodies into classes, seats, and behind radar scopes. If the FAA wanted the best and brightest to come work traffic, they'd offer a better compensation package (pay, work rules, benefits) than the DoD (both contracted DoD controllers, and military controllers).

That's not happening though, so the FAA is having to look elsewhere to band-aid their staffing shortcomings. That location is off-the-street.

Which, get in anyway you can. Knock your socks off, but I think what most of us here are saying is at least listen to what is being said by those who are actually behind the scopes right now. These guys know what their talking about, and have no patience of kids coming in and treating them like ####.

Sit down, shut up, and listen. It's real simple. See how the machine works, read what is happening to those who not being able to put food on the table, not being able to pay bills due to the lack of compensation. Especially with $100bbl of oil, EVERYTHING costs more. Food, gas, lawn care, house fixes, etc.

You guys should be demanding better compensation, as should EVERY employee in this country.

It's amazing that a one time, well paid profession where the income figures were way above the inflation adjustments year after year, is now down to more than 25% below inflation adjustments from year after year.

It's just mind boggling when you actually take the time and run the numbers, just amazing that anyone would be willing to work for such. But hey, like you said. . .89k would make your day.

Not me, and I suppose I'm following my boyhood "dream" of flying for a living. The ATC was a more rational decision during my teenage years and early adulthood. Things happen for a reason though, and I couldn't be any more happy to fly for a living. I just hope the future controllers of the world don't let me down and I end up coming in contact with another plane.

Anyway - another long-winded post. I'm off to bed. Good luck.