Theives vs Newbies

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by skidz

Is it just my impression or I'm seeing too many negative posts about the ATC jobs lately?
What's cooking in the ATC world? Should I be worried about it while I'm trying to chase that needle down the glideslope?

Most definitely. 10 hour days, 6 days a week and exactly 8 hours off between shifts. No more 2 hours on position and you get a break for 20 min., now it might be 2.5 or more. 8 hour shift the other day and I was on position for 7+40. Maybe easier at a lower facility (still outrageous) but not at ATL TRACON.

Be afraid...Be very afraid.

[tilli5285]

thanks for the info atltracon, it is greatly appreciated.

[Beehive]

Originally Posted by ATLTRACON

Beehive,
I still stand by my comments, but maybe I didn't vocalize it well. I do not know of any controller, staying or retiring, that has any dislike for new applicants/hires.

CJ

With all do respect I guess my topic does not apply to you. It applies to current controllers that are about to retire yet dislike current applicants for whatever reason(s).

[Doug Taylor]

Now have you seen consistent evidence of this or is it based upon a bad experience or two?

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by Beehive

With all do respect I guess my topic does not apply to you. It applies to current controllers that are about to retire yet dislike current applicants for whatever reason(s).

AND again I say, I know of NONE, staying or about to RETIRE, that has a problem with the new hires. It's all about busting your ass and studying hard. the problem is with the newest generation is that they show up today and expect to be checked out tomorrow, know EVERYTHING and have very little lack of respect for professionals that have been doing this for 20+ years at The Big Show (ATL). I don't care whether you're blue, green, black or purple, do the job, have some respect and you'll get along fine with all. Staying AND RETIRING.

[queeno]

the lights are on but no one is home

[JT ATC]

Originally Posted by ATLTRACON

the problem is with the newest generation is that they show up today and expect to be checked out tomorrow, know EVERYTHING and have very little lack of respect for professionals that have been doing this for 20+ years

That's your answer Beehive. I don't even have to work in the FAA. Just being a military controller is enough to know that this is the reason veteran controllers have a so-called "dislike" for new hires.

[surreal1221]

What is being said above, can be said of nearly every work environment.

Difference is.

Only one work environment deals with aluminum tubes zooming through the air with 2 or even 500 people inside of them.

But they don't want to think about that now do they. Getting paid the "big bucks" as compared from their previous short-term jobs.

[Beehive]

Originally Posted by ATLTRACON

AND again I say, I know of NONE, staying or about to RETIRE, that has a problem with the new hires. That was a great answer to my question...sorry for the misunderstanding. It's all about busting your ass and studying hard. the problem is with the newest generation is that they show up today and expect to be checked out tomorrow, know EVERYTHING and have very little lack of respect for professionals that have been doing this for 20+ years at The Big Show (ATL). I don't care whether you're blue, green, black or purple, do the job, have some respect and you'll get along fine with all. Staying AND RETIRING.

Thanks for posting your experiences of controlling on this forum for newbies such as myself to read and learn from.

Here is what some people on jetcareers forums have had to write about applicants-

So all applicants should bow out of the process and call it quits?

"yes thats what iam saying, if you people keep signing up for the substandard pay and working conditions, the FAA will just come out and say, HAY look at all the people applying for the job it must be good,and nothing will change.you will have nothing to complain about because you signed up for this.hay but dont belive me you will see quick enough."

So all applicants should bow out of the process and call it quits?
Yes.

"Yes, because if we finally get through to some of you guys and the supply of willing robots the FAA wants declines, they'll have to get back to the table and actually NEGOTIATE a professional contract."

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Beehive

"Yes, because if we finally get through to some of you guys and the supply of willing robots the FAA wants declines, they'll have to get back to the table and actually NEGOTIATE a professional contract."

That one there is mine.

I stand by that statement, and will continue to stand by it. Sorry it ruffles your feathers.

[Beehive]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

That one there is mine.

I stand by that statement, and will continue to stand by it. Sorry it ruffles your feathers.

It's fine with me as long as I get to post my opinions.

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by Beehive

It applies to current controllers that are about to retire yet dislike current applicants for whatever reason(s).

I'm curious ... what do you base this on ? Were you a trainee who failed or was treated badly ? I have worked at one facility my whole career but can tell you I don't see the dislike you describe and my building has close to 200 controllers. I'm not trying to call you out... it's just that you made a statement that I really have not observed.

Also ... where did you get your PATCO info from ??? I came in well after PATCO but worked with quite a few people who went through the strike, both as management and as controllers. Sitting and talking to these people about the strike is a very interesting experience and they tell quite a more complex story then your statement.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Beehive

It's fine with me as long as I get to post my opinions.

Who told you not to post your opinions?

Has someone taken away your "Reply" button?

Come on.

[ATC RET 2003]

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

Also ... where did you get your PATCO info from ???

I believe the passage Beehive quoted came from this. The rest, he'll have to say.

Originally Posted by Beehive

I understand the basics about the 80's strike. They wanted a 4/32 work week and higher pay.

However, there was a lot more to it than just those two points. Here is an article that, in my opinion, does a very good job of expounding on several of the many issues pertaining to the strike. It’s a long read, but if you really want a broader view of things, I feel it’s worth the time it will take.

CJ, Josh and my future drinking buddy (especially the latter two) seem to have struck a nerve with you. From my point of view, they are all three are essentially saying the same thing… and I will rephrase what I perceive them to be saying (secure in the knowledge that they will all promptly set me straight if I am off base) and that is…

You are seeking employment with an organization that has a long history of placing little or no value on its employees.

In 1981, no one I knew had a personal computer. We did not have the internet and we surely had no forums such as this. If we HAD had them… we very likely would have been telling those three the same things they are now telling you.

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by Beehive

Thanks for posting your experiences of controlling on this forum for newbies such as myself to read and learn from.

Here is what some people on jetcareers forums have had to write about applicants-

So all applicants should bow out of the process and call it quits?

"yes thats what iam saying, if you people keep signing up for the substandard pay and working conditions, the FAA will just come out and say, HAY look at all the people applying for the job it must be good,and nothing will change.you will have nothing to complain about because you signed up for this.hay but dont belive me you will see quick enough."
Above statement is true/factual. The FFA will spin even an air crash to their benefit.

So all applicants should bow out of the process and call it quits?
Yes.

"Yes, because if we finally get through to some of you guys and the supply of willing robots the FAA wants declines, they'll have to get back to the table and actually NEGOTIATE a professional contract."

[ATLTRACON]

Originally Posted by ATC RET 2003

I believe the passage Beehive quoted came from this. The rest, he'll have to say.



However, there was a lot more to it than just those two points. Here is an article that, in my opinion, does a very good job of expounding on several of the many issues pertaining to the strike. It’s a long read, but if you really want a broader view of things, I feel it’s worth the time it will take.

CJ, Josh and my future drinking buddy (especially the latter two) seem to have struck a nerve with you. From my point of view, they are all three are essentially saying the same thing… and I will rephrase what I perceive them to be saying (secure in the knowledge that they will all promptly set me straight if I am off base) and that is…

You are seeking employment with an organization that has a long history of placing little or no value on its employees. Could not have been better said....drinks on me.

In 1981, no one I knew had a personal computer. We did not have the internet and we surely had no forums such as this. If we HAD had them… we very likely would have been telling those three the same things they are now telling you.

[Beehive]

There have been some people in this forum that have called on newbies to quit the hiring process so current controllers can get a deal done. I was calling those out who believe that by stating, not asking, they was in a relative situation when they were hired. It does not apply to all controllers, just the slim few that believe I am the reason for their lower salaries and I should stop the hiring process so they can get paid more.
When I read the posts about how applicants should give up, I wanted to state my opinion. I did it, there is no hate involved and there you have it.

Mind you, I have been warned to not call out on anyone personally so I won't write any names.

I do not know the fine print within the PATCO or NATCA proposal's. I searched the net for the info which I quoted. I wish to read up and educate myself on those issue's when I find the time.

I understand the FAA is not the greatest employer. I know some great controllers who have explained in detail how they're treated and what is expected of them.

[Justin538]

I like the defeat and narrow-mindedness of the people who say "people should stop applying to be controllers, so then we can get a fair deal".

Do you really think that's the only way to advance change? Since, the chances of that actually happening are probably one in a million, you guys must be pretty miserable, and feel like there's nothing you can do. Pathetic.

Since the FAA, like an alcoholic, isn't going to change unless it hits rock bottom, or gets sucker punched by an intervention, maybe instead of bickering, we should be brainstorming ideas.

Since rock bottom in this case probably involves people dying, I'd rather not approach that subject entirely. I would however like to approach the intervention tactic. The FAA doesn't answer to NATCA, or the employees, or even the american public. They answer to Congress and the President.

Congress in this case is (can be) more powerful than the president. It is our job (people, controllers, general public, customers) to communicate to congress our complaints, fears, requests and demands.

Outside of lobbying(which has developed a weird stigma in congress lately) there are essentially 4 means of communicating with congress. Petitions, emails, phone calls and snail mail. Snail mail is by far the most effective, but most expensive. Petitions are heavy in workload with minimal impact. I've made this argument before but I want to take it to another level.

I am not the most capable person for this, but a website should be set up.
It should have the basic contact info for each member of congress. IF anyone knows how to set up an online petition that would be good, but we need to effectively communicate the complaints, the requests, and also the importance of taking this issue to task. It is also important to not come across as "whiney". NATCA has done that, and we see how well that's gone. Also, on this future website (one day?) there should be a form letter that essentially says the same thing that can be printed off and mailed to each congressman.

My point, is that congress takes up issues when there is pure volume. Since snail mail is physically a nuisance when there are thousands of letters that say the same thing, it is more effective. Lets do this, and work to fix the problem. The fact that this hasn't even been attempted since the contract was instituted absolutely blows my mind.

Kind of long winded, but that's my outline for what needs to be done to correct the contract issues. Flame away.

[GeorgeM]

I happened to be in the D.C. area last week, visiting family there and doing tourist stuff. I noticed a NATCA ad on the radio several times berating the FAA. Looks like the union is stepping up the volume, and taking their case to the public and the Congress.

[Beehive]

Originally Posted by Justin538

I like the defeat and narrow-mindedness of the people who say "people should stop applying to be controllers, so then we can get a fair deal".

Since the FAA, like an alcoholic, isn't going to change unless it hits rock bottom, or gets sucker punched by an intervention, maybe instead of bickering, we should be brainstorming ideas.

The FAA doesn't answer to NATCA, or the employees, or even the american public. They answer to Congress and the President.

Kind of long winded, but that's my outline for what needs to be done to correct the contract issues. Flame away.

This is a great idea. I've e-mailed several congress members concerning this issue. We need the public to join us in this fight.

[JKoffler44]

Originally Posted by Justin538

I like the defeat and narrow-mindedness of the people who say "people should stop applying to be controllers, so then we can get a fair deal".

Do you really think that's the only way to advance change? Since, the chances of that actually happening are probably one in a million, you guys must be pretty miserable, and feel like there's nothing you can do. Pathetic.

Since the FAA, like an alcoholic, isn't going to change unless it hits rock bottom, or gets sucker punched by an intervention, maybe instead of bickering, we should be brainstorming ideas.

Since rock bottom in this case probably involves people dying, I'd rather not approach that subject entirely. I would however like to approach the intervention tactic. The FAA doesn't answer to NATCA, or the employees, or even the american public. They answer to Congress and the President.

Congress in this case is (can be) more powerful than the president. It is our job (people, controllers, general public, customers) to communicate to congress our complaints, fears, requests and demands.

Outside of lobbying(which has developed a weird stigma in congress lately) there are essentially 4 means of communicating with congress. Petitions, emails, phone calls and snail mail. Snail mail is by far the most effective, but most expensive. Petitions are heavy in workload with minimal impact. I've made this argument before but I want to take it to another level.

I am not the most capable person for this, but a website should be set up.
It should have the basic contact info for each member of congress. IF anyone knows how to set up an online petition that would be good, but we need to effectively communicate the complaints, the requests, and also the importance of taking this issue to task. It is also important to not come across as "whiney". NATCA has done that, and we see how well that's gone. Also, on this future website (one day?) there should be a form letter that essentially says the same thing that can be printed off and mailed to each congressman.

My point, is that congress takes up issues when there is pure volume. Since snail mail is physically a nuisance when there are thousands of letters that say the same thing, it is more effective. Lets do this, and work to fix the problem. The fact that this hasn't even been attempted since the contract was instituted absolutely blows my mind.

Kind of long winded, but that's my outline for what needs to be done to correct the contract issues. Flame away.

I think this is a great idea also. I just don't know where to begin, and what to write/quote.

[Justin538]

Step 1 - Get a domain or blog site set up. Once again 1-2-3-not it! I'm useless with this stuff.

Step 2 - Create a "letter to the editor" type of document, but it must be more in depth and portray a professional attitude. It should be like mailing your boss a memo (it kind of is....) It should be for petitions and mailings.

Step 2.5 - I'm really bootlegging this list. Create an actual letter to the editor, it doesn't hurt to tell the media that there might be a "movement" that they're missing.

Step three - Enlist the support of controllers, their blogs/websites (ie faafollies and the main bang.) If anything, Obama has shown us how important the internet can be.

Step Four - Mail away. How much is a book of stamps, 8 bucks? That can mail 20 letters. Sounds pretty cheap if it could lead to a 30% pay raise. (excuse me, reinstatement of lost pay bands).

Now, if we can get 50,000 online e- signatures, that's a big deal. If we can get 5000 people to mail out one book of stamps, that's literally 100,000 pieces of mail landing on the desks of people who can make a difference.

This is a no-brainer.

I'm putting this guy in my posts because He is the coolest smiley I've ever seen.

[surreal1221]

You guys do know that NATCA offers an activist e-mail distribution list right?

Why re-invent the wheel.

NATCA is your lobbyist, and elected officials actually sit face to face with these individuals. Not some automated e-mail, or written letter. As much as we would like to believe that little notion. It doesn't happen as much as a NATCA representative is having a morning coffee with an elected official.

[Zoesmom1020]

I understand that NATCA has "morning coffee with an elected official" but what would it hurt to do as much as possible? Everyone...GO! get to the NATCA website and get in on the distribution list...but if someone has the know-how and gumshun to start up another webiste, do it! Why not bombard Congress from all sides? Seriously, every little bit helps.

[Justin538]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

You guys do know that NATCA offers an activist e-mail distribution list right?

Why re-invent the wheel.

NATCA is your lobbyist, and elected officials actually sit face to face with these individuals. Not some automated e-mail, or written letter. As much as we would like to believe that little notion. It doesn't happen as much as a NATCA representative is having a morning coffee with an elected official.

This issue needs more than a lobbyist. It needs the public to scream. The general public did this last year and stopped George W Bush in his tracks on the immigration issue. I'm not sure if you realize how much power that actually takes, considering congress has yet to do it on their own.

This is not reinventing the wheel, this is suping up the engine and reinforcing the bumper, and plowing the car through the front door.