Altitude Busts..How much is too much

[RightSeatGirl]

I know it probably depends on a lot of variables as to whether or not a controller will write up a pilot for an assigned altitude bust but I was wondering if you guys had some official or unofficial guidelines. Is it up to the individual controller? What are the factors that cause you to decided to initiate a violation?

I ask because I was flying along a week ago..and I busted my altitude by 430ft...It was a stupid newbie mistake. I had the sun right in my eyes and I could barely see the AFCS status display and hadn't realized alt-select was off. I got distracted by something the c/a was saying and looked up to notice I was through my assigned altitude. The controller said nothing. I immediately corrected and we flew on like nothing happened. I'm not too concerned with this coming up again but I was wondering if I just lucked out with a mellow controller, or he didn't notice, or if 430 ft of deviation which caused no safety problem or immediate traffic conflict saved my butt?

Thoughts?

[ZapBrannigan]

Thought.

Fill out a NASA form ASAP. Might never hear another word about it, but a NASA will cover your butt if you do.

It's not a big deal. I filled them out just about every trip when I flew for the regionals. Sometimes even on a day off i'd fill one out. "Hi NASA. It's Mike again. Didn't even fly today! "

[Velocipede]

Fill out a NASA report. However, rule of thumb. If you're within 300 ft. you're usually OK.

[RightSeatGirl]

I already did the NASA report, that's a no brainer. I had the option to do a self disclosure deal with my company but due to the lack of reaction out of the controller and the c/a I was flying with not being worried about it we did not go that route. I'm a little concerned with doing one of those still on probation so I'm betting on nothing coming of it. I learned a good lesson by the incident so I will be far more vigilant about monitoring descents and climbs from now on, LOL

Unfortunately we were beyond 300ft..But again, the controller said nothing and we didn't get the dreaded "call the TRACON supervisor" message when we landed so I think we lucked out.

[Velocipede]

They usually won't, unless the deviation is gross OR you make them "lose separation" from another airplane. They are pretty sensitive about that due to the autosnitch that's in the computer.

[RightSeatGirl]

Yeah that was probably our saving grace I imagine. There were no other aircraft within 20 miles, we had zero hits on the TCAS at the time. In other words, no one got an RA due to us and the controller didn't have to turn an aircraft or anything either. It was clear and VMC..

[Velocipede]

Yeah, the weather usually isn't a factor. If the controller loses separation or if its close, they'll ding you to cover themselves if the snitch goes off.

[BobDDuck]

I'm not sure about this but from what I understand, the FAA won't audit radar tape, but they will periodically review COM tapes. So, ATC had asked you about it and you had said something over the radio and they said it wasn't a problem... it still could be down the road. But because there was no communication, you probably are ok. Either way, fill out the NASA form (I thought you guys had an ASAP program in place too) and that probably will be the end of it.

[ZapBrannigan]

I wouldnt worry about filling out an ASAP report while on probation either. ASAP is a partnership between the airline, the union, and the FAA. It is a safety program and will not be used to discipline you whether you're on probation or otherwise.

[RightSeatGirl]

Yeah we have ASAP. But I really want to get through my first year with nothing negative in my file you know..Hell, I already have an engine shutdown under my belt so I think that's enough for year one, LOL...Still waiting to hear from some controllers on this topic! But thanks for the responses thus far guys!

[Velocipede]

Hey, that's all I wanted, too. However, by the end of my first year, I had so many oddball incidents I was on a first name basis with the Chief Pilot. Nothing bad, just stuff he wanted the crew's side of the story for.

[SmitteyB]

How much is too much?

I would think it would depend on where you are and how close someone is to you?

In a place like NY- I would bet 200 feet would get a question from approach. In Ithaca...2000 feet would get a question.

[PilotChip]

If we have a situation with a pilot/aircraft non-compliance we will issue the standard phraseology "(a/c id) possible pilot deviation, advise you contact (facility name) at (phone number)."

From pilots' point of view, do you get notices of deviations without being issued that statment?

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I believe 300 feet is when the alarms go off. Once you're about to go through 200 feet.. it's time to lift the passengers up off their seats (or squish them down).... get back on altitude.



Like has previously been said... fill out a NASA form and get it in the mail. (company ASAP report if applicable).

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Btw, chip has a great point. If the controller didn't say a thing... be a respectful, good boy/girl and dont mention a thing about on that freq or ever again. Send off the NASA/ASAP report and you're good to go.

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by RightSeatGirl

Still waiting to hear from some controllers on this topic!

Ask and you shall receive...

I am a center controller so this applies to that environment. Without going into detail about the center DSR radar system +/- 300 is the magic number that will trigger something on our display. Keep in mind... if you're off by one hundred feet we could see it depending some settings on our end.

You seem more interested in the discipline aspect and the answer is it depends. As long as you did not "get together" or loose separation with another aircraft you are 99.9% in the clear. Generally if I see an A/C deviating from it's assigned altitude I ask them to confirm the current altimeter if not in the flight levels or confirm 29.92 if in the flight levels, then read them the altitude I'm reading. It would be tough to violate a pilot from our (ATC's) perspective for an altitude deviation if there was no other control issue involved.

In your scenario I would be very surprised if you hear anything, stuff like that does happen, the only way you could see some action would be if you went through your altitude and the "snitch" went off alerting ATC of a loss of separation. At that point there would be an investigation by the QA (Quality Assurance) office and you would be given the dreaded phone number over the frequency to call the facility upon landing.

Hope the info helps... if you need more info post away.

[BobDDuck]

A question to clarify what I said before...

Are com tapes audited? And for that matter, is radar track data audited? Obviously, if there is some sort of problem somebody is going to take a look at the tapes, but I have been told that often times com tapes are randomly looked at down the road and they can hit you with a violation/deviation even if the controller at the time said it wasn't a problem.

[Bumblebee]

This is a great thread! So much wisdom right at my fingertips!!!

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

A question to clarify what I said before...

Are com tapes audited? And for that matter, is radar track data audited? Obviously, if there is some sort of problem somebody is going to take a look at the tapes, but I have been told that often times com tapes are randomly looked at down the road and they can hit you with a violation/deviation even if the controller at the time said it wasn't a problem.

At the center where I work they do not randomly go back and look at tapes, they only will review them if they are tipped off about something or they are doing some type of review on a controller and want to review his/her performance.

What they do is randomly monitor live sectors via the watch desk. Keep in mind... they are looking at the controllers performance; barring a pilot deviation that involves some sort of error or airspace violation you will most likely not get reported. The ATC side of things does not investigate pilots, all they do is pass the info along to another division (FSDO or something).

Of course if the manager watching the sector has a problem with something a pilot does it can be reported, I just can't remember a time it has happened. 99% of the time if they see a pilot do something they do not like they have the pilot call and just speak to them about it, it just about will always ends there.

Pilots... keep two things in mind. Fill out the NASA form and remember, if you are given the number to call always call, don't panic. Also... all phones at ATC facilities are recorded just like the frequencies...

[DE727UPS]

"the only way you could see some action would be if you went through your altitude and the "snitch" went off alerting ATC of a loss of separation"

Does the snitch only go off for a loss of seperation? Or would it go off just as well for an airspace boundry (LOA) infraction?

If the snitch goes off, does it automatically trigger an event that the manager must investigate? I once was told the snitch sets off an alarm at the supes position.

Sorry if you're giving away all your secrets.....hehe.

[EDUC8-or]

Originally Posted by RightSeatGirl

Yeah we have ASAP. But I really want to get through my first year with nothing negative in my file you know..Hell, I already have an engine shutdown under my belt so I think that's enough for year one, LOL...Still waiting to hear from some controllers on this topic! But thanks for the responses thus far guys!

ASAP isn't negative, the ASAP coordinator takes the names off the report to make it anonymous and then the committee meets to discuss what happened and how it could have been prevented. There is a time frame (usually 24 hours) that you have to submit the report. An ASAP won't go in your company "file", but a violation will certainly go on your record.

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Does the snitch only go off for a loss of seperation? Or would it go off just as well for an airspace boundry (LOA) infraction?

If the snitch goes off, does it automatically trigger an event that the manager must investigate? I once was told the snitch sets off an alarm at the supes position.

Sorry if you're giving away all your secrets.....hehe.

The bell rings up at the watch desk and only for a loss of separation between aircraft, not airspace. It's pretty accurate though on occasion you get a false hit due to radar stitching. It goes off when we use visual so on nice VFR days you'll hear the "bat phone" (in house hotline to the watch desk) ring and someone at a sector yell VISUAL !

[EDUC8-or]

I forgot to add something about ASAP, if ATC decides to pursuit a violation you might receive a letter of warning or something along those lines, but it's doubtful you will get a violation.