Runway Takeoff Starting Position

sdfcvoh · September 13th, 2007, 23:50

I had a first today after dropping a friend off at TUS that I would love some advice on. Holding short of 29L in my C172, getting ready to take the active at my assigned hold point (about halfway down the runway), tower had me enter the active and back-taxi to the beginning of the runway for my takeoff. (TUS is going through some repairs right now - so I saw a few of the big guys back taxiing all the way to the start of the runway, then taking off.) This is what they wanted me to do, too.

My question: In this case, I've actually started my takeoff roll from the point I entered today (at the request of ATC) and it leaves PLENTY of room for me. I went ahead and expeditiously back-taxied to the start of the runway, then after clearance I took off. Since I could safely have taken off from the point at which I entered the runway (like I mentioned - ATC has had me do that before) should I have asked tower for permission to commence my roll from that same point? If so - what would be the terminology I'd use if other than, "I can take off from here if it helps you out," thats normally how I'd put it I guess.

I usually don't go throwing out audibles there, since I know they are busy. In this case I could have saved them a couple of minutes. What do you think?

BobDDuck · September 14th, 2007, 00:19

You could have informed them you could have taken it from the intersection. However, there are all sorts of reasons they would have required full length. Wake turbulence separation, after sunset, separation from the other runway. Who knows. But it doesn't hurt to ask for the intersection if it would help them (and you) out.

Captain_Bob · September 14th, 2007, 01:39

"Tuscon Tower, Cessna 12345 requests intersection takeoff at (entrance intersection)."

Short and simple. It informs them that you have the performance to takeoff from there and they will allow it if it saves them and you time. Otherwise... if they don't want you to do it, then they'll just request the full back taxi into position.

No harm in requesting it anything... no matter how small your plane.

Bob

Maximillian_Jenius · September 14th, 2007, 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdfcvoh

I had a first today after dropping a friend off at TUS that I would love some advice on. Holding short of 29L in my C172, getting ready to take the active at my assigned hold point (about halfway down the runway), tower had me enter the active and back-taxi to the beginning of the runway for my takeoff. (TUS is going through some repairs right now - so I saw a few of the big guys back taxiing all the way to the start of the runway, then taking off.) This is what they wanted me to do, too.

My question: In this case, I've actually started my takeoff roll from the point I entered today (at the request of ATC) and it leaves PLENTY of room for me. I went ahead and expeditiously back-taxied to the start of the runway, then after clearance I took off. Since I could safely have taken off from the point at which I entered the runway (like I mentioned - ATC has had me do that before) should I have asked tower for permission to commence my roll from that same point? If so - what would be the terminology I'd use if other than, "I can take off from here if it helps you out," thats normally how I'd put it I guess.

I usually don't go throwing out audibles there, since I know they are busy. In this case I could have saved them a couple of minutes. What do you think?

So, what're they doing to my home airport, lengthing the runways, or maybe adding another one?

Inquiring minds would like to know!

amorris311 · September 14th, 2007, 03:42

they have had some weird ass ops going on down there at night. i had something similar happen to me yesterday on my way back from nogales. i am also not a fan of the stop and taxi back after 10pm. just let my pos c172 do a touch n go.

Maximillian_Jenius · September 14th, 2007, 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by amorris311

they have had some weird ass ops going on down there at night. i had something similar happen to me yesterday on my way back from nogales. i am also not a fan of the stop and taxi back after 10pm. just let my pos c172 do a touch n go.

Interesting, I wonder if all this nonsense is military related!

BobDDuck · September 14th, 2007, 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by amorris311

they have had some weird ass ops going on down there at night. i had something similar happen to me yesterday on my way back from nogales. i am also not a fan of the stop and taxi back after 10pm. just let my pos c172 do a touch n go.

So you finally went down to the border. Isn't that approach wild with the huge hill and displaced threshold? Every one of my students would stay SO high on that approach.

"Dude... we're high"
"Naw... there's a big hill we'll be ok"
"Naw man... We really are 400 feet high"
"Oh crap... we are!"
THUNK

amorris311 · September 14th, 2007, 12:43

it was a cool approach. nothing like kearny though. that is an interesting place to fly into. when you get on ctaf the old guys come out of the hangar and watch you land. as you take off they rate it. kinda funny. larry tiffen runs the fbo down in nogales and he says its pretty funny watching the people come in high. its a pretty insane sight picture. they are installing papi's though so now people should not freak out as much.

sdfcvoh · September 14th, 2007, 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

So, what're they doing to my home airport, lengthing the runways, or maybe adding another one?

Inquiring minds would like to know!

They've got 11L/29R Closed for repairs. Also, they've closed several of the connecting Alpha connecting taxiways. I would think they'll be done pretty soon - its been over a week I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

So you finally went down to the border. Isn't that approach wild with the huge hill and displaced threshold? Every one of my students would stay SO high on that approach.

"Dude... we're high"
"Naw... there's a big hill we'll be ok"
"Naw man... We really are 400 feet high"
"Oh crap... we are!"
THUNK

I know this wasn't for me - but Nogales is awesome. I'm guessing you are talking about coming in from the border (Bisbee - Nogales). One of the most beautiful approaches I've seen. I think the last time I did it, flying along the tiny Corridor between Mex and Libby/Huachuca restricted, I was skirting big puffy clouds. Just amazing looking down through the openings and descending over the last two ridges into Nogales. Its easy to come in too high.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amorris311

it was a cool approach. nothing like kearny though. that is an interesting place to fly into. when you get on ctaf the old guys come out of the hangar and watch you land. as you take off they rate it. kinda funny. larry tiffen runs the fbo down in nogales and he says its pretty funny watching the people come in high. its a pretty insane sight picture. they are installing papi's though so now people should not freak out as much.

Kearny, eh? hmmm. Looks like me heads up to Kearny this afternoon! Any pointers?

amorris311 · September 14th, 2007, 14:17

long crosswinds and base legs. put it on the numbers for runway 8. it is good fun. look for the guys to comeo ut of the hangar down at the end of the runway. they get a kick out of it.

sdfcvoh · September 14th, 2007, 14:23

amorris311 · September 14th, 2007, 14:33

if you make it out there. let me know how it goes. have fun!!! o be careful while going up there as there are many students screwing around there in the silverbell practice area and southeast practice area. i think you can monitor 122.8 and see where the knuckleheads are.

BobDDuck · September 14th, 2007, 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by amorris311

larry tiffen runs the fbo down in nogales

If you ever get jammed up needing an DE for a checkride, Tiffen does a pretty fair ride. I used him a few times for ATPs (especially the ANG guys based at TUS and the guys at DM who already lived down there) and a few CFI rides. It can be a hassle getting permission from the main office to ferry a plane down there for the ride and it normally involves doing instrument training with another student with the applicant in the back seat on the way down and back, but it is worth if.

amorris311 · September 14th, 2007, 14:42

he is probably the coolest guy i have met here in az. flew down there the other day and he and i were bs'ing about airplanes. he has a baron that has over 500hp! that thing screams! he gave me a card and said whenever in need call. ethan i will def call him if i get in a jam but things have changed since you roamed the phx atp office. we now have management on property.

Maximillian_Jenius · September 14th, 2007, 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by amorris311

he is probably the coolest guy i have met here in az. flew down there the other day and he and i were bs'ing about airplanes. he has a baron that has over 500hp! that thing screams! he gave me a card and said whenever in need call. ethan i will def call him if i get in a jam but things have changed since you roamed the phx atp office. we now have management on property.

He did my PPL check ride, totally nice guy!

WCAT1918 · September 15th, 2007, 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

"Tuscon Tower, Cessna 12345 requests intersection takeoff at (entrance intersection)."

Short and simple. It informs them that you have the performance to takeoff from there and they will allow it if it saves them and you time. Otherwise... if they don't want you to do it, then they'll just request the full back taxi into position.

No harm in requesting it anything... no matter how small your plane.

Bob

Ahhhh....it's spelled Tucson...haha...sdfcvoh check your pm's...I am flying a few commercial x-countries a week based out of sonoran wings at TUS and would love to meet up some time...just did one to Sedona this week that was a blast...take care, Chris

BobDDuck · September 15th, 2007, 10:45

The phonetic (and to help you remember how to spell it) is "Tuxson" as in...

"Tuxson tower, Cessna XXXX downwind for 11L"

Or, if you are one of the Samurai out of Ryan

"Tuxson Towwa. Waaarreeea twoooo pwaaapa awwfa wiiite dowwwind fow da wunway."

sdfcvoh · September 15th, 2007, 11:10

Some of the tail numbers at IATA are seriously evil. Its like someone planned ahead of time to pick tail numbers that would be the hardest for their students to pronounce. ... and I can't help but chuckle from time to time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

The phonetic (and to help you remember how to spell it) is "Tuxson" as in...

"Tuxson tower, Cessna XXXX downwind for 11L"

Or, if you are one of the Samurai out of Ryan

"Tuxson Towwa. Waaarreeea twoooo pwaaapa awwfa wiiite dowwwind fow da wunway."

unclenobby · September 15th, 2007, 12:31

4000 Ft of Runway behind you commencing a TO roll is useless. However, It could be the difference if the engine fails on initial climb between getting back down on the runway safely or a less favourable option.
If ATC request you to back taxi then I'm sure they have planned for you to do so, hence you are not saving them a couple of minutes.....just yourself!!
We might not need a lot of runway to get airborne, but the more beneath you on climb out, the more options available to you in an emergency situation.
Why give some cards back when you've been dealt a good hand??!!

sdfcvoh · September 15th, 2007, 20:17

Thats the safest answer of the group. Can't go wrong with safety, either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclenobby

4000 Ft of Runway behind you commencing a TO roll is useless. However, It could be the difference if the engine fails on initial climb between getting back down on the runway safely or a less favourable option.
If ATC request you to back taxi then I'm sure they have planned for you to do so, hence you are not saving them a couple of minutes.....just yourself!!
We might not need a lot of runway to get airborne, but the more beneath you on climb out, the more options available to you in an emergency situation.
Why give some cards back when you've been dealt a good hand??!!

Seggy · September 15th, 2007, 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by amorris311

they have had some weird ass ops going on down there at night.

I don't appreciate the use of cuss words on here!

sdfcvoh · September 15th, 2007, 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seggy

I don't appreciate the use of cuss words on here!

Then you're gonna hate this one:

MITTEN!

trafficinsight · September 16th, 2007, 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

The phonetic (and to help you remember how to spell it) is "Tuxson" as in...

"Tuxson tower, Cessna XXXX downwind for 11L"

Or, if you are one of the Samurai out of Ryan

"Tuxson Towwa. Waaarreeea twoooo pwaaapa awwfa wiiite dowwwind fow da wunway."

At my airport it's "lighta downwindow"

amorris311 · September 16th, 2007, 23:34

ethan one of the waaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeaaa woooooon twwwwwwooooo pwaaappa awwwfa planes got the number from phx approach. busted all kinds of airspace. he was so confused when the controller was yelling at him. all one could do was cry.

loubetti · September 17th, 2007, 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdfcvoh

Thats the safest answer of the group. Can't go wrong with safety, either.

That was the answer I was going to give also. What's that saying we have?

"Altitude below you, fuel left on the ground, runway behind you, etc."

September 13th, 2007, 23:50	#1
sdfcvoh Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tucson Posts: 960	Runway Takeoff Starting Position I had a first today after dropping a friend off at TUS that I would love some advice on. Holding short of 29L in my C172, getting ready to take the active at my assigned hold point (about halfway down the runway), tower had me enter the active and back-taxi to the beginning of the runway for my takeoff. (TUS is going through some repairs right now - so I saw a few of the big guys back taxiing all the way to the start of the runway, then taking off.) This is what they wanted me to do, too. My question: In this case, I've actually started my takeoff roll from the point I entered today (at the request of ATC) and it leaves PLENTY of room for me. I went ahead and expeditiously back-taxied to the start of the runway, then after clearance I took off. Since I could safely have taken off from the point at which I entered the runway (like I mentioned - ATC has had me do that before) should I have asked tower for permission to commence my roll from that same point? If so - what would be the terminology I'd use if other than, "I can take off from here if it helps you out," thats normally how I'd put it I guess. I usually don't go throwing out audibles there, since I know they are busy. In this case I could have saved them a couple of minutes. What do you think? __________________ I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers.

September 14th, 2007, 00:19	#2
BobDDuck Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Left Seat Posts: 5,764	Re: Runway Takeoff Starting Position You could have informed them you could have taken it from the intersection. However, there are all sorts of reasons they would have required full length. Wake turbulence separation, after sunset, separation from the other runway. Who knows. But it doesn't hurt to ask for the intersection if it would help them (and you) out. __________________ TBJC08 The Gear Monkey The Gear Monkey Store

September 14th, 2007, 01:39	#3
Captain_Bob Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: DFW, based in ONT, wishing I was in Maine Posts: 3,904	Re: Runway Takeoff Starting Position "Tuscon Tower, Cessna 12345 requests intersection takeoff at (entrance intersection)." Short and simple. It informs them that you have the performance to takeoff from there and they will allow it if it saves them and you time. Otherwise... if they don't want you to do it, then they'll just request the full back taxi into position. No harm in requesting it anything... no matter how small your plane. Bob __________________ My head is in the clouds and my heart is still in Maine... but my devotion and love belong to my wife and children. Pics!

September 14th, 2007, 03:42	#5
amorris311 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles soon to be phx Posts: 2,563	Re: Runway Takeoff Starting Position they have had some weird ass ops going on down there at night. i had something similar happen to me yesterday on my way back from nogales. i am also not a fan of the stop and taxi back after 10pm. just let my pos c172 do a touch n go.

September 14th, 2007, 12:43	#8
amorris311 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles soon to be phx Posts: 2,563	Re: Runway Takeoff Starting Position it was a cool approach. nothing like kearny though. that is an interesting place to fly into. when you get on ctaf the old guys come out of the hangar and watch you land. as you take off they rate it. kinda funny. larry tiffen runs the fbo down in nogales and he says its pretty funny watching the people come in high. its a pretty insane sight picture. they are installing papi's though so now people should not freak out as much.

September 14th, 2007, 14:17	#10
amorris311 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles soon to be phx Posts: 2,563	Re: Runway Takeoff Starting Position long crosswinds and base legs. put it on the numbers for runway 8. it is good fun. look for the guys to comeo ut of the hangar down at the end of the runway. they get a kick out of it.

September 14th, 2007, 14:23	#11
sdfcvoh Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tucson Posts: 960	Re: Runway Takeoff Starting Position __________________ I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers.

September 14th, 2007, 14:33	#12
amorris311 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles soon to be phx Posts: 2,563	Re: Runway Takeoff Starting Position if you make it out there. let me know how it goes. have fun!!! o be careful while going up there as there are many students screwing around there in the silverbell practice area and southeast practice area. i think you can monitor 122.8 and see where the knuckleheads are.

September 14th, 2007, 14:42	#14
amorris311 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles soon to be phx Posts: 2,563	Re: Runway Takeoff Starting Position he is probably the coolest guy i have met here in az. flew down there the other day and he and i were bs'ing about airplanes. he has a baron that has over 500hp! that thing screams! he gave me a card and said whenever in need call. ethan i will def call him if i get in a jam but things have changed since you roamed the phx atp office. we now have management on property.

September 15th, 2007, 10:45	#17
BobDDuck Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Left Seat Posts: 5,764	Re: Runway Takeoff Starting Position The phonetic (and to help you remember how to spell it) is "Tuxson" as in... "Tuxson tower, Cessna XXXX downwind for 11L" Or, if you are one of the Samurai out of Ryan "Tuxson Towwa. Waaarreeea twoooo pwaaapa awwfa wiiite dowwwind fow da wunway." __________________ TBJC08 The Gear Monkey The Gear Monkey Store

September 15th, 2007, 12:31	#19
unclenobby Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Beantown Posts: 131	Re: Runway Takeoff Starting Position 4000 Ft of Runway behind you commencing a TO roll is useless. However, It could be the difference if the engine fails on initial climb between getting back down on the runway safely or a less favourable option. If ATC request you to back taxi then I'm sure they have planned for you to do so, hence you are not saving them a couple of minutes.....just yourself!! We might not need a lot of runway to get airborne, but the more beneath you on climb out, the more options available to you in an emergency situation. Why give some cards back when you've been dealt a good hand??!! Last edited by unclenobby; September 15th, 2007 at 14:51.

September 16th, 2007, 23:34	#24
amorris311 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles soon to be phx Posts: 2,563	Re: Runway Takeoff Starting Position ethan one of the waaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeaaa woooooon twwwwwwooooo pwaaappa awwwfa planes got the number from phx approach. busted all kinds of airspace. he was so confused when the controller was yelling at him. all one could do was cry.

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