Runway Incursion - TEB

[JEP]

NTSB Identification: OPS07IA005B
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Incident occurred Sunday, June 17, 2007 in Teterboro, NJ
Aircraft: Cirrus Design Corp. SR-22, registration: N6026K
Injuries: 3 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On June 17, 2007, at 1320 EDT (1720 UTC), a runway incursion occurred at Teterboro Airport (TEB), New Jersey involving Avantair (VRN) flight 152, a P180, and N6026K, an SR22.

AT 1319:02, the pilot of VRN152, an IFR departure, advised the tower controller that they were ready to depart from runway 24. The tower controller responded, 'Avantair one five two, runway 24, cleared for takeoff.'

At 1319:42, the pilot of N6026K, a VFR departure, advised the tower controller that he was 'ready to go [on runway 19] at [taxiway] bravo.' The tower controller responded, 'Cirrus two six kilo left turn northeast bound maintain at or below one thousand runway 19 at bravo cleared for takeoff.'

The pilot of VRN152 saw N6026K on departure roll and applied maximum braking, experienced two blown tires on the main gear, as N6026K rolled past, through the intersection 50 feet in front. VRN152 stopped in the intersection. The tower controller stated that he did not see the incursion, so he did not cancel either takeoff clearance.

There were 3 people in the tower cab; the tower/controller-in charge and two developmental controllers who were working clearance delivery, one controller was on break. The two developmental controllers were faced away from the front of the cab and did not see the event.

The incident occurred during day VFR conditions (clear sky with 10 miles visibility).
Index for Jun2007 | Index of months

This may be a dumb question, but on something like this do the controllers get nailed? 30 seconds difference for TO clearance in intersecting runways, Yikes. Who do they place the blame with on this? Both were given clearance, but yet the controller says, "...that he did not see the incursion, so he did not cancel either takeoff clearance...." Maybe I am missing something, but if they are intersecting runways wouldn't or shouldn't the controller have held plane #1 until plane #2 had departed?

[hacknow]

A whistler-blower at TEB warned about his last year: http://www.hackensacknow.org/index.p...sg2427#msg2427

(almost 10,000 page views and 9 pages of comments about the dangers of TEB on this site).

Personally, I think TEB should be closed. At the very least, the Port Authority should be forced to provide local residents with a list of companies using the airport so that they can stop buying their goods and services. This airport is a menance and I doubt its contribution to the overall economy, at least when you consider the pollution, population and lack of safety. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by hacknow

Personally, I think TEB should be closed. At the very least, the Port Authority should be forced to provide local residents with a list of companies using the airport so that they can stop buying their goods and services.

Before getting into such a charged debate with a first post, perhaps you should share your background and flying experience with TEB.

Based on the fact that TEB has 1 or 2 incursions a year and EWR has 7, maybe we should CLOSE EWR.

TEB has been open since 1917. I'm pretty confident that it was there before any of the "protesting neighbors." They can get over it or move.

As far as boycotting the users products, good luck with that. You might as well stop watching TV, stop listening to radio, ipod, and computers. Doesn't matter, because you will have to stop using electricity also. Then you will have to move outside the US, because the Government uses it too (as well as many foreign governments. If you can live in a tent South of the border you should be good.

If TEB were to close, all of the traffic is going to go EWR, LGA and JFK. None of which are capable of handling such a volume of corp traffic. It would require MASSIVE Federal and local funding to set up an infrastructure to handle the volume. Which in turn would cause further delay problems with the "airlines." Remember Continental fussing about the corp traffic when TEB was flooded out a few months ago? That was nothing.

[stuckingfk]

Originally Posted by hacknow

A whistler-blower at TEB warned about his last year: http://www.hackensacknow.org/index.p...sg2427#msg2427

(almost 10,000 page views and 9 pages of comments about the dangers of TEB on this site).

Personally, I think TEB should be closed. At the very least, the Port Authority should be forced to provide local residents with a list of companies using the airport so that they can stop buying their goods and services. This airport is a menance and I doubt its contribution to the overall economy, at least when you consider the pollution, population and lack of safety. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT.

Nice first post. Welcome to JC, a place where pilot would like to keep airports open.

And if you really believe the rhetoric just puked out of your computer, then maybe a rectal examination should be planned before any more damage is done.

[JEP]

.....and back to my question....Would it be normal to clear for t/o two planes on intersecting runways like so? The filed i fly out of has intersecting rw's but one will usually get the position and hold, traffic departing intersecting rw. Seems odd and dangerous. I could be missing something, but was curious.

[queeno]

Originally Posted by hacknow

A whistler-blower at TEB warned about his last year: http://www.hackensacknow.org/index.p...sg2427#msg2427

(almost 10,000 page views and 9 pages of comments about the dangers of TEB on this site).

Personally, I think TEB should be closed. At the very least, the Port Authority should be forced to provide local residents with a list of companies using the airport so that they can stop buying their goods and services. This airport is a menance and I doubt its contribution to the overall economy, at least when you consider the pollution, population and lack of safety. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT. CLOSE THE AIRPORT.

*edited by Kristie and yellow card given*

[hacknow]

Yeah, this airport is perfectly safe:

(and you give ME a yellow card???)




I saw a bumper sticker yesterday that said "If you're not outraged you're not paying attention." All it takes is a glance at recent Teterboro headlines to know that this airport needs to go. All articles can be read here (under "Teterboro Airport News").

Teterboro, Airport for Elite, Jammed 'Beyond Belief'
Faulty landing shuts Teterboro
NJ sees spike in aviation accidents, deaths in 2005
Tough talk over Teterboro
Lawmakers review Teterboro plan
Health, safety issues raised
PA to spend $10M for Teterboro jet barrier
Dozens demonstrate over Teterboro woes
Report says plane was low on fuel
Officials request Teterboro maydays
Police ID pilot killed in crash
One dead in small-plane crash
A Sharp Increase in Reports of Planes Flying Too Close
Towns being reimbursed for jet mishap
Joyride shows safety lapses
Hit 'em in the wallet
Senate hearing to focus on flight volume at Teterboro Airport
Taming Teterboro
The widening mess at Teterboro
Calls for leaner Teterboro get louder
Here's a novel way to cut Teterboro Airport flights
PA chief would cut Teterboro air traffic
Pilot hurt as crippled craft misses runway and burns
Crash injures pilot, renews fear
Teterboro needs its own security force, lawmakers say
Teterboro Airport could get safety barriers by 2007
PA wants tougher rules at Teterboro
FAA working on clearer chart for Teterboro pilots
Covering fear with flowers
Teterboro pilots get told: Pay attention!
Troubling uses for Teterboro
Now hear this: School near Teterboro will be soundproofed
FAA warns Teterboro pilots
Mishap roils airport critics
Jet skids off runway at Teterboro
PA to keep soundproofing schools near N.J. airports
Coveted air study to begin at airport
Criticism of Teterboro intensifies after jet crash
Ill-fated jet pulled from warehouse
Teterboro neighbors face greater threats
Jet crash probe focuses on icing
Teterboro jet crashes
Plane crashes into warehouse
Private Jet Crashes Near Teterboro, NJ Airport-Report
N.J. man charged with shining laser at airplane
Piece falls from plane after takeoff
N.J.'s crowded airspace adds to crash risk, experts say
Small jet headed for Texas made an emergency landing at Teterboro Airport
Bergen schools to get $1M for soundproofing
Teterboro pollution study hits new snag
Web site turns your PC into an eye on the sky
Turbulent skies
Safeguards limit 'runway incursions'
Crowded skies increasingly unfriendly over the area
Fat cats are left cooling their jets
Bush signs ban of Boeing 737s at Teterboro
The Battle Over Teterboro: From Romance to Hostility
What it's like to live in airport flight path
Law closes loophole, clips wings at airport
Public charters banned at Teterboro
Corporate jet aborts takeoff at Teterboro
Air power: Lobbyists challenge Teterboro
PA refuses to upgrade Teterboro
Voters will decide on role in suit
State to fund Teterboro air study
House acts to ban big jets at Teterboro
Senators secure provision limiting jets at Teterboro
PA girding for battle over 737s at Teterboro
Charter flights set off furor around Teterboro

[OldTownPilot]

Good job plugging your own website to get more 'page views' and increase your statistics that you try to spew out at us.

As for the incursion, at least they have a control tower. Come to BHB or RKD some weekend this summer to see the incursions and near mises that I see, or am part of on a daily basis.

And as far as the over-run goes, that crap happens on a daily basis around the world. Heck CGH had THREE in one day. (only the last one was fatal)

[NJA_Capt]

Hacknow,
Wow, a picture from an accident 2 years ago.

TEB was built in 1917. If you don't like the airport m-o-v-e. I have stayed near TEB quite a lot. Traffic noise is more bothersome than the airport.
Close to 200 pedestrians are killed annually in NJ. Are you asking dealers to stop selling cars? Maybe we should ban walking.

Buh bye.

[Av8trix]

Looking at the linked thread, and assuming the info reposted here was from the original author "Editor" from the other board, it looks like a personal crusade thing to me. TEB is crowded, sure, but a solution has to be a *reasonable and well-planned* one. Closing the airport? That's a knee-jerk reaction.

Take a look at how the Meigs field closure in Chicago has affected ATC operations in the Chicago area. Meigs wasn't as busy as TEB in terms of bizjet traffic, either. I would imagine the impact on NYC's airspace with a closure of a field of TEB's magnitude wouldn't be pretty.

http://64.143.36.15/html/news/2003-1...es_closure.htm

The first article on that page mentions how increasing traffic at O'hare and Midway (partially due to the Meigs field closure) is bogging down ATC at those fields. Given how everyone screams about delays delays delays and incompetant service from airlines and atc, one would think that "the public" would want to relieve congestion at the busier internat'l airports. Delays at EWR could only increase (likely dramatically) were TEB to be closed, and all that bizjet traffic re-routed.

The second article on the page talks about how the closing of Meigs field has impacted atc at OHare and Midway, citing an increased number of errors at those airports. So.. not only do delays go up, efficiency and safety go down...

But hey, so long as it's not in *MY* backyard.

-A-

[OldTownPilot]

eh, I was only part of 1 incursion today in .7 on the hobbs. Beech jet pulled onto the runway as I was about 500' from the threshold, I was about 50' agl when I passed just to the right of him.

People think as ling as you announce what you want to do you can do that. other pilots on a CTAF trust the other guy WAAAAAAY too much to keep their ass alive.

[ATC RET 2003]

Originally Posted by JEP

...Maybe I am missing something, but if they are intersecting runways wouldn't or shouldn't the controller have held plane #1 until plane #2 had departed?

My opinion is yes. Here's what FAAO 7110.65 ("The Book") says:

3−9−8. INTERSECTING RUNWAY SEPARATION

Separate departing aircraft from an aircraft using an

intersecting runway, or nonintersecting runways

when the flight paths intersect, by ensuring that the

departure does not begin takeoff roll until one of the

following exists:

a._The preceding aircraft has departed and passed

the intersection, has crossed the departure runway, or

is turning to avert any conflict.

b._A preceding arriving aircraft is clear of the

landing runway, completed the landing roll and will

hold short of the intersection, passed the intersection,

or has crossed over the departure runway.

[hacknow]

Move? When my family bought this house in 64, TEB was a small, quiet, unobtrusive airport with limited traffic. It wasn't the mess it is now. The nuisance came to me, I didn't come to the nuisance.

Like so many other Bergen Co. residents, I didn't notice the gradual build up. It was only when a relative pointed out to me (about 4 years ago) that there was a plane over my house literally every 45 seconds for about 4 hours straight. It's like the adage: put a frog in boiling water, it will jump out. Put a frog in water and let it boil slowly, and you'll cook it. I'm "well done".

Agenda? TEB has severely diminished the quality of life and property value of tens of thousands of people throughout the area. And for what? What do we get out of it? This airport is for rich people. Sure, there's some economic benefit, but the cost in risk, quality of life, environmental harm, etc. is not worth it. At the very least, consumers and residents should decide, not special interests.

Page views? I could care less. As for the car analogy, it a matter of degree. There's simply no way to ban cars, entirely. But- you can push for mass transit and make TEB "convenience" cost prohibitive. If some snob wants to pollute my air and interrupt my conversations so she can hop off to Vegas for a few hours, she can pay my property taxes too.

You're all pilots. That's great. I dream of being a pilot, but I wouldn't DARE infringe upon the safety and well-being of an entire population so that inconsiderate rich snobs can go skiing or play golf on the other side of the country.

[KLB]

Originally Posted by hacknow

You're all pilots. That's great. I dream of being a pilot, but I wouldn't DARE infringe upon the safety and well-being of an entire population so that inconsiderate rich snobs can go skiing or play golf on the other side of the country.

Well you're not going to be flying too many places then because there are "TEB type" airports all over the place.

[OldTownPilot]

Originally Posted by hacknow

Move? When my family bought this house in 64, TEB was a small, quiet, unobtrusive airport with limited traffic. It wasn't the mess it is now. The nuisance came to me, I didn't come to the nuisance.

Like so many other Bergen Co. residents, I didn't notice the gradual build up. It was only when a relative pointed out to me (about 4 years ago) that there was a plane over my house literally every 45 seconds for about 4 hours straight. It's like the adage: put a frog in boiling water, it will jump out. Put a frog in water and let it boil slowly, and you'll cook it. I'm "well done".

Agenda? TEB has severely diminished the quality of life and property value of tens of thousands of people throughout the area. And for what? What do we get out of it? This airport is for rich people. Sure, there's some economic benefit, but the cost in risk, quality of life, environmental harm, etc. is not worth it. At the very least, consumers and residents should decide, not special interests.

Page views? I could care less. And as far as the "car crash" comparison, I choose to take the risk, it's not imposed on me. If you can't see the difference, this discussion is meaningless.

You're all pilots. That's great. I dream of being a pilot, but I wouldn't DARE infringe upon the safety and well-being of an entire population so that inconsiderate rich snobs can go skiing or play golf on the other side of the country.

You (you family) moved next to an airport. Airports expand and see increased traffic numbers, especially near large metropolitan ares such as TEB, HPN, VNY, BUR, etc. Sorry case closed.

As for safety, hrmmm ONE overrun at TEB deems that airport 'unsafe' for "the entire population"? Try again. As for 'well-being', see the first paragraph.

"Some" economic benefit? Try large, Airports on that scale directly employ hundreds of people, and the secondary jobs number in the thousands.

[hacknow]

Then so be it. I'll give up my flight ambitions for the greater good? Who's with me?

Case closed? Thousands of Bergen County residents feel the way I do. The case is FAR FROM CLOSED. No one asked us about 100X expansion compared to the 60's and it was NOT foreseeable things would get this out of hand.

Jobs for "hundreds of people"? What about the hundreds of people working at Hackensack University Medical Center? What happens when your sesna (to Grand Cayman) crashes into the children's cancer center? Will you be worried about a few hundred "jobs"? Who cares?

Jobs get shifted all the time. No one is making asbestos anymore. Why? Because it was dangerous and needed to be phased out. Same for TEB. Time to "re-tool".

By the way, I don't think TEB will be closed, but it should be WAY HARDER AND MORE EXPENSIVE to fly in and out. Also- residents should have a say about usage and decide how useage surcharges are spent. That's my "measured approach".

[TopperHarley]

[quote=hacknow;649900]Then so be it. I'll give up my flight ambitions for the greater good? Who's with me?

Nah.. I'm fine. Here's an idea though. Move to Montana.

[OldTownPilot]

Find an airport that has no residents with 5 miles so you can fly there to not "disturb the well being of an entire population"

Everything in urban areas has expanded and seen more utilization. its not just airports. You should also be bashing NJDOT for the increased noise on the roads. The companied that construct new high-rises should be shunned too? Equal opportunity NIMBYness is in order.

[hacknow]

"NIMBY" doesn't quite work for me. Don't get me wrong I don't want TEB in my backyard, but if the FAA/Port Authority insist, they need to pay me. If the government takes my property by eminent domain, I get just compensation. If the FAA/PA "take" (through diminution of value, quality of life, etc.) they should pay me too. How? Through whopping surcharges for airport usage. I think Tiger Woods, Donald Trump and Lindsay Lohan can cough up a few grand per trip. If they don't want to, they can use Newark like everyone else.

But you can't just throw money at this either. Residents NEED TO BE VESTED in the decision making process surrounding airport usage.

In the meantime, usage has to be curtailed. Stewart may provide some relief, but it won't be enough.

As for the high rises, people need housing. They don't need leer jets.

[TopperHarley]

Please.. You can rant all you want, no one's really paying attention anyway. But please.. It's Lear and it's Cessna. A simple "google" should help clear up any future uncertainties on spelling.

[hacknow]

Topper, are you a pilot or a grammar school nun?

[OldTownPilot]

TEB is in your backyard (it was there first), The PANY insists its there, and no, they are not going to eminent domain your house. Are you crazy?

The NJDOT also insists that the pike and parkway stay, How 'bout you go to some car boards and rant about roads?

It's so nice that all 5 of your posts he at JC are in this one thread ranting about an airport. If you really want to contribute here, expand your horizons and talk about your flying experiences in other threads?

Correct spelling does add a bit of credibility to what you say.

[hacknow]

Careful "OldTown". I don't mind, but it seems people in these boards are very particular about spelling and typos. You had a few in your last post and may get "yellow flagged". You spelled "here" wrong and apparently lost some credibility as well. (Now make sure you go back and fix that to make me look like a liar.)

You misunderstood. I know no one is going to take my house. What I'm saying is a "taking" (in the legal sense) has already occurred in that many residents have lost their right to the "quiet enjoyment" of their property. The government (FAA, PANY) should compensate for this loss via the surcharge explained above.

And yes, some say I'm a little crazy. But are you fly boys so deluded that you don't recognize the enormous toll your industry takes on the non-flying public? I don't mind EWR, JFK because I get a direct benefit from them. I use them. But airports like TEB DO NOT SERVE THE INTERESTS of the non-flying public, especially when you take into account the danger, pollution, noise, etc. It's a rich person's airport for athletes and movie stars.

[mikecweb]

No soup for you...

NEXT!

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by hacknow

...my family bought this house in 64,

I didn't notice the gradual build up.

It was only when a relative pointed out to me (about 4 years ago)

Your family has lived there since 1964, and you didn't notice the air traffic until someone pointed it out four years ago?!?!?!

Originally Posted by hacknow

What do we get out of it?

You get the tax money helping pay for the roads and infrastructure around the community. Or....you could close the airport and let the community pay much steeper taxes themselves.

Originally Posted by hacknow

....they need to pay me.

Here is really the point. You want a free ride. Your property is probably worth 100x what was paid in 64. I think you'll do fine when you move.