Expected to fly DP in VMC???

[Trybysky]

I was curious if atc still expects you to fly the DP if your ifr clearance states no particular departure procedure.... my question comes from LWS (lewiston, id). I always ask if I can climb on course VMC, but every time I do, they respond like they expected me to anyway. The DP takes you back 180 degrees to the VOR and then on course after whatever altitude. This is something I should probably know, but don't.

[surreal1221]

Hmm, does the field have an ODP?

What is the R part of the CRAFT you are getting from your clearence? Radar vectors . . . Direct. . . ODP. . .?

Okay- I see the ODP has you fly direct to MQG, so I'm wondering if on your route to wherever, is MQG your first way point? And then on the victor airway from there?

Honestly, I've never heard of it being common practice to give off the impression that if the field is VMC you can ignore or avoid the DP. Just my two cents. If you're IFR, on an IFR flight plan, getting ATC radar services. . . then it may be best to either follow the ODP or DP that you were filed, or cleared for.

just my ATC-CTI edumacation sneaking up on me. . .hopefully one of the thick skinned controllers will chime in as well

[daveatc]

Originally Posted by Trybysky

I was curious if atc still expects you to fly the DP if your ifr clearance states no particular departure procedure.... my question comes from LWS (lewiston, id). I always ask if I can climb on course VMC, but every time I do, they respond like they expected me to anyway. The DP takes you back 180 degrees to the VOR and then on course after whatever altitude. This is something I should probably know, but don't.

If you've got a published DP, the controllers should be stating 'Cleared to..... via the Shaky2 departure.....blah blah blah' when they issue the clearance. If they don't put that in there, and it's not in an LOA, I don't see why you'd have to adhere to it.

Some light reading for you: http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0403.html

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by Trybysky

I was curious if atc still expects you to fly the DP if your ifr clearance states no particular departure procedure.... my question comes from LWS (lewiston, id). I always ask if I can climb on course VMC, but every time I do, they respond like they expected me to anyway. The DP takes you back 180 degrees to the VOR and then on course after whatever altitude. This is something I should probably know, but don't.

I think the way you are thinking and operating is correct. You should expect to fly the Obstacle Departure Procedure in absence of a SID or given radar vectors by ATC. However, Part 91 gives the pilot the option to fly the ODP or depart in some other manner. So if you're part 91 and it's VMC out...you could climb in visual conditions on course without adhering to the ODP.

Air carriers...in their operations specifications...are typically bound to fly the ODP (in absence of a SID or Radar Vectors, or some other special instructions) and must fly the procedure.

[zmiller4]

I was curious if atc still expects you to fly the DP if your ifr clearance states no particular departure procedure.... my question comes from LWS (lewiston, id).

This is a pretty good question, and I know it's gotten a lot of people in trouble. My airline flies quite a bit in places that have ODP's that you won't be specifically cleared for, but we're always expected to fly them (even in VMC) unless we specifically ask for a VFR climb (which we're authorized for). I'm not 100% sure if they expect a part 91 flight to do the same, but I'd absolutely clarify. If you pop up on their radar way ahead of where you're supposed to be, they get pretty pissed.

I always ask if I can climb on course VMC, but every time I do, they respond like they expected me to anyway.

I'd definately continue to do this. Additionally, I just flew with a captain who had spoken with a SLC center controller who said that if you really want to cover your butt, tell them that you can "maintain terrain clearance during the climb to xxxxx", which supposedly keeps ATC on the hook for traffic avoidance. I don't know if I would do that; I'd probably just keep requesting a VMC clim to point xxx.

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm too lazy to look up a reference) but I was told one time that you are authorized to fly an ODP even if you are not specifically cleared for one.

[EatSleepFly]

TFaudree- I don't think you'll ever be specifically cleared for an ODP.

Trybysky- I just looked this up recently, and actually put a copy of the whole ops. spec. in my clipboard for reference, which I happen to have with me.

The ops spec. is C077, and the part that applies is paragraph D:

"Terminal Departures IFR. The flight crew must comply with the departure procedures established for a particular airport by the FAA if ATC does not specify any particular departure procedure in the takeoff clearance given for that airport. The flight crew may accept an IFR clearance containing a clearance for a VMC takeoff and climb out to a specified point in the clearance, if the limitations and provisions of subparagraph e. of these Operations Specifications are met."

Paragraph E is limitations for VFR ops, and it basically says that we must still meet the applicable performance requirements, and the weather conditions must be sufficient to see and avoid obstacles.

Hope that helps. How are you liking the tube?

[Trybysky]

sweet. Thanks for all the thoughts. ESF... you rock. The tube is awesome!

Thanks for all the responses!

[Trybysky]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Hmm, does the field have an ODP?

What is the R part of the CRAFT you are getting from your clearence? Radar vectors . . . Direct. . . ODP. . .?

Okay- I see the ODP has you fly direct to MQG, so I'm wondering if on your route to wherever, is MQG your first way point? And then on the victor airway from there?

Cleared to BFI via VXXX AS filed, departure freq. XXX, squakXXXX.

MQG is the first waypoint, but it's behind me. I understand that if the field is IFR and I can't maintain my own terrain sepp. then I need to do the ODP. But I'm talking VMC. ATC can't get you on radar until about 4k AGL. So I've been asking for climb on course vmc...and my question comes from their response....they act like either they don't care or that they expected me to just climb out on my own heading and join the airway...

the responce from you and ESF pretty much cleared it up... I just need to keep asking for the climb.

Thanks

[meritflyer]

I always file the ODP in my route, so to avoid any confusion, I fly it.

ie, Route -

ODP - XXX - V1000 - VVV

I dont see any requirement though that you must fly the ODP in visual conditions. If you filed a route which didnt contain an ODP and were cleared "as filed", I see no reason why you'd need to fly the ODP.

[EatSleepFly]

Merit-

You can't file an Obstacle Departure Procedure. How would you?

You can only file a Standard Instrument Departure (i.e. the Van Nuys 7 Departure). The ODP for a specific runway at a specific airport is usually a textual description found on the airport diagram (Jepps). You need a clearance to fly a SID, you do not need one to fly an ODP.

Also, at least for 135, you techincally have to fly the ODP even if you are in visual conditions unless you ask for a VFR climb and/or let ATC know that you can maintain your own terrain seperation. ATC doesn't know what you see out the windows and won't just assume you are in VFR conditions if you go tooling along on your way without flying the ODP.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by EatSleepFly

Merit-

You can't file an Obstacle Departure Procedure. How would you?

I always tell the briefer in my route "ODP - BLAH - BLAH"

How I learned years ago, never been questioned once by a briefer about it.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by EatSleepFly

Also, at least for 135, you techincally have to fly the ODP even if you are in visual conditions unless you ask for a VFR climb and/or let ATC know that you can maintain your own terrain seperation. ATC doesn't know what you see out the windows and won't just assume you are in VFR conditions if you go tooling along on your way without flying the ODP.

I agree with you. I fly them nearly everytime but, there is no regulatory requirement for part 91 ops that requires you to do so.

[Trybysky]

Merit...

ODPs don't have a name...i'm still trying to figure out how you file it? It's redundant if you say " via ODP VXXX ... blah blah" I don't even think they can put that in there. SID's usually aren't even filed. They're given to you in your clearance and in the absence of one, you fly the ODP unless other wise told. In my original post, I was confused by the tone the controller had when I asked to climb on course.

[mbtrebbe]

Originally Posted by EatSleepFly

TFaudree- I don't think you'll ever be specifically cleared for an ODP.

Trybysky- I just looked this up recently, and actually put a copy of the whole ops. spec. in my clipboard for reference, which I happen to have with me.

The ops spec. is C077, and the part that applies is paragraph D:

"Terminal Departures IFR. The flight crew must comply with the departure procedures established for a particular airport by the FAA if ATC does not specify any particular departure procedure in the takeoff clearance given for that airport. The flight crew may accept an IFR clearance containing a clearance for a VMC takeoff and climb out to a specified point in the clearance, if the limitations and provisions of subparagraph e. of these Operations Specifications are met."

Paragraph E is limitations for VFR ops, and it basically says that we must still meet the applicable performance requirements, and the weather conditions must be sufficient to see and avoid obstacles.

Hope that helps. How are you liking the tube?

comin out of brown field in san diego (SDM) you always get the brown IFR DP in your clearance, comin out of palomar (CRQ) before the tower opens you get the palomar IFR DP

[mbtrebbe]

Originally Posted by Trybysky

Cleared to BFI via VXXX AS filed, departure freq. XXX, squakXXXX.

MQG is the first waypoint, but it's behind me. I understand that if the field is IFR and I can't maintain my own terrain sepp. then I need to do the ODP. But I'm talking VMC. ATC can't get you on radar until about 4k AGL. So I've been asking for climb on course vmc...and my question comes from their response....they act like either they don't care or that they expected me to just climb out on my own heading and join the airway...

the responce from you and ESF pretty much cleared it up... I just need to keep asking for the climb.

Thanks

if MQG is your first waypoint you would be expected to fly there unless you request somethin else. Try filing direct somewhere else first.