Flight Plans

[sm203900]

Had an interesting issue come up the other day and was hoping for a little light on the issue. Had a plane going from KBUF to KTEB the other day and was filed to a vor that was about fifty miles from airport, atc gives our pilots a bunch of crap because it was not one of the normal transition points (i.e. sax, coate, etc...), anyhow the controller said that the next time they would hold the plane on the ground until we filed them to their satisfaction. My question is that, although I do agree that the routing was not the best, there was nothing wrong with it and ATC has no right to jump up the pilots butt about it. My feeling is that the route could have been better they do not have the right to give a hard time if the aircraft is not going through any restricted airspace, and if I really wanted to give them something to complain about I can always file direct.

[casey]

he's probably just tired of having to reroute everyone so that new york center will take them. Just file direct sparta direct and be done with it.

[Fox Xray]

To give you a specific answer I will need some more info:

Type A/C
Filed Route and Altitude
Time of day
What facility told you they would not accept you (preferably what sector, do you remember the frequency ?)

Technically you could not get a release till you have good routing in your flight plan. There's more to it then that but I'm curious to see what you filed before I speculate.

[sm203900]

For starters, it was not myself, but another co-worker who did not go over flight plan with a fine tooth comb. I undersatnd ATC getting frustrated because we should know better, but my point is that I do not understand why the controller got mad with the pilots and why they would tell them that next time they would be held on the ground until it was filed correctly. I do not remember the exact routing but the last fix on the route was HNK. The aircraft was a beechjet and it was probably around 6:00 pm or 7:00 pm. Don't have any info on which center specifically gave the problem, but i am leaning towards N.Y. Center.

Unfortunately this is not the first time we have had ATC get worked up. Way back in the day Las Vegas C.D. used to get angry because occasionally we would not file the SID that they wanted. I can be more then understanding of their frustration when a bad route is filed, but there is no reason to take the frustration out on the public, just pass on the word that they would prefer this route or that SID. It helps no one to get angry about it and in the end I can file an airplane any way that I wish as long as it is safe and legal. That does not mean that ATC has to give said filed route. In order to try to make everyone's life easier atc, pilots, and dispatch should work together to create a positive working relationship, not work against one another. As stated earlier, I understand controller frustration when a bad route is handed to them, but at the same time it solves nothing to add to the problem.

[Bandit_Driver]

ATL really gave it to me when we turned down and RNAV arrival. We are authorized for RNAV enroute only, she didn't want to hear it.

So what should be our equipment code, apparently they don't like 722/Q
722 = 727-200 that is Stage III compliant.

[casey]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

ATL really gave it to me when we turned down and RNAV arrival. We are authorized for RNAV enroute only, she didn't want to hear it.

So what should be our equipment code, apparently they don't like 722/Q
722 = 727-200 that is Stage III compliant.

/Q is /R + RVSM, which is RNP capabilites.

dunno what you should file but there are a couple options that might work.

FMS(DME/DME) + IRU + RVSM = /J
FMS(DME/DME) + RVSM = /K
GPS(term+enroute) + RVSM = /L
vanilla RNAV + RVSM = /W

/J, /K, /L, /Q are /E, /F, /G, /R with RVSM capabilites respectivly.

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by casey

/Q is /R + RVSM, which is RNP capabilites.

dunno what you should file but there are a couple options that might work.

FMS(DME/DME) + IRU + RVSM = /J
FMS(DME/DME) + RVSM = /K
GPS(term+enroute) + RVSM = /L
vanilla RNAV + RVSM = /W

/J, /K, /L, /Q are /E, /F, /G, /R with RVSM capabilites respectivly.

Yeah, I am not sure either. The planes only have one FMS that gets GPS updates. There isn't a IRU or DME update so I guess /W may be the correct one. But wouldn't /W still imply terminal RNAV capabilities?

[casey]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

Yeah, I am not sure either. The planes only have one FMS that gets GPS updates. There isn't a IRU or DME update so I guess /W may be the correct one. But wouldn't /W still imply terminal RNAV capabilities?

/W imlies RNAV but not Advanced RNAV. The difference between the two? no idea here but the note on /W says "Filing “/W” will not preclude such aircraft from filing and flying direct routes in enroute airspace."

[Bandit_Driver]

thanks

[Fox Xray]

It all depends on how bad the routing was compared to the pref. If the filed routing took the A/C on a complete different route then that is a major problem, we are told NOT to take those hand offs. The problem lies with BUF, the A/C should never have gotten off the ground.

The center can refuse the hand off and it is within their right. I have had situation where I tool A/C on terrible routes and gotten denied by the next sector. That starts a whole slew of problems, supervisor intervention, we get counseled for taking the A/C with bad routing.

If you can get the filed route I can probably get you better info.

[mtsu_av8er]

If a pilot didn't file the preferred routing, why not just issue a FRC, and be done with it? It almost seems childish to take the bad routing, and then have it "denied" by the ARTCC, making everybody's day miserable!

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

If a pilot didn't file the preferred routing, why not just issue a FRC, and be done with it? It almost seems childish to take the bad routing, and then have it "denied" by the ARTCC, making everybody's day miserable!

It's not always that simple ... when the basic route is close to the pref, sure, that works. BUT ... if the A/C came off with bad routing it can be many sectors away from where it should be. That is where the problem lies.

A notorious example of this would be an A/C flying ACY to ALB. Very often they file out to the east then north over JFK. No good ... all ZNY sectors are instructed not take A/C that way. They are head on with all the NY metro departures, The pref takes them west then north. 99.9% these bad routing's are caught, but on occasion someone gets off filed this way and with the wrong people working (controllers, Sup's) there can be a lot of problems. A/C have been turned around and sent back to ACY more then once ...

I agree with you, just issue a FRC but things are more complicated behind the scenes, especially in the Northeastern US.

If anyone thinks they may have been treated unfairly, provide me with the departure point, arrival airport, filed route, type A/C, and any other details and I will see if I can get more info. In today's FAA climate information is not as easy to come by but I still have some friends in high places.

[todd584]

Man in DFW they don't get mad at all. We will file something, and get a different clearance. In the air if something isn't right they move us as needed. No fuss. If we don't like the reroute they give us and it's VFR we can cancel, but I know that is not always possible. I guess since DFW and fort worth center are so busy they don't mess around.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

I agree with you, just issue a FRC but things are more complicated behind the scenes, especially in the Northeastern US.

I suppose things may be complicated. I can understand that, just as most controllers don't always know what's happening in the cockpit.

That being said, isn't it the job of controllers to give service to the pilots of aircraft? Again, not questioning controllers or what they do, but isn't that the mission? It seems that sending an aircraft back to the departure airport to re-file a flight plan is just being silly. Especially when the pilot may or may NOT be familiar with the preferred IFR routes in the local area. If you're a weekend flyer, you've got the time to research everthing with regards to an IFR flight plan. When you're on the arrival, with the chart out, filing your outbound leg, it's not always that easy!!

[sm203900]

Finally got some more info about the route, it was KBUF BEEPS J522 HNK, the preferred was BEEPS J522 HNK V167 WEARD V489 COATE. Not sure why the dispatcher only filed half of the route, but it was along the lines of the preffered route.

I understnad what FoxXray is saying about the problems it can cause when a bad route is filed and when the aircraft gets off of the ground with that route. I guess this brings to light a few other issues, one which was already hit upon. The fact is that if a pilot is cleared, then I do not see how controllers down the line can turn a plane back. The fact is that they were cleared, and the problem lies with the originating controller. Secondly, a pref route is just that, it is preferred, not mandatory. Should it be used by dispatchers, absolutely, we should know what the pref routes are and use them to make everyone's life easier, but that does not mean that every once and a while one does not slip through the cracks.

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

thanks

Sounds like you should be filing /K like me. By your explaination, this is how your 72 is equipped. I have never been issued an RNAV departure or arrival when filing this suffix. It works out great.

[skydriverdc6]

I feel your pain, every time I fly up north from ATL, no matter what IFR plan I file, it gets amended about 4 or 5 times before I get to NY. Buy the time I get to my destination Im finally back on my original plan to some extent. I check the preferred routes and there werent any, but it never fails. Im almost always rerouted west of DC, then I have to go north of my destination about 20 miles, then turn around and fly south. Although, I guess I would rather have that than cancel and fly VFR in NY airspace, thats like asking for something to happen, lol

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by casey

/W imlies RNAV but not Advanced RNAV. The difference between the two? no idea here but the note on /W says "Filing “/W” will not preclude such aircraft from filing and flying direct routes in enroute airspace."

Are you sure /W implies anything about RNAV? Based on my knowledge and research, /W is a /A with RVSM. Sounds like Bandit should be filing /K.

[Fox Xray]

I'm honestly at a loss on why that route caused such a stir ... all it was missing was routing after HNK. The plane was in the correct sector, all it should have involved was to issue a route and enter it in the computer, something we do dozens of times per shift.

Someone was either having a bad day or the pilot just ran into a zero on the scope, it happens. I know it is not the answer you are looking for and I am in no way justifying it. If you have a similar problem again drop me a PM and I'll try and look into it.

As for pref routes every A/C that passes through our sectors has to be on a pref route. But here's the thing I can't even figure out, our sector SOP's and LOA's have pref routing's that we must have A/C on, yet ... they often do not match the pref routes published in the AFD's !!! No one knows why this is.

[sm203900]

I really appreciate your help. Some days you will come across these problems, best thing to do is move on and not let it eat at you. ATC does a good job, and I can honestly say that even when something strange comes up I do not give it to much thought, one problem out of the hundreds of flights that we fly is not too shabby.