PARs...and where to get them (preferably on the west coast)

[genkukov]

Currently, I'm working on the near ends of my instrument rating (hopefully less than 2 weeks to checkride). My instructor and I were wanting to fly a PAR somewhere. I know mainly military bases have them, but from what I've heard, they're usually gracious enough to let an ol' C172 fly one. I was wondering, where can I get one, and also, how would I file IFR to the PAR (going to combine that with the 250 NM cross country). Your guys thoughts?
-Kukov

[BobDDuck]

MikeD (if he is still around) would be best to answer this question. Your best bet is to find a joint use field. Controllers are required to do a certain number of PAR/ASR approaches to stay current so they don't mind you doing them too much. If you are south on the west coast Yuma has a great PAR approach and have no problem letting GA traffic play on it. As far as farther north... I dunno. Just make sure you read up on communication procedures and what not before hand. There is a great writeup about them on here somewhere that Mike wrote but I am too lazy to search for it right now.

[DE727UPS]

I used to do them at Ft Lewis, Grey AAF, near Tacoma, WA. They were nice about it. I know they had the capability to do them up at NAS Whidbey Is but they wouldn't let you do them. I was on SoCal approach going into ONT this week and I heard them hand a civvie off to March GCA, so that's a good sign. Not sure where else.

As far as filing, I'd file for a nearby civillian airport with an approach and when you get close ask for a practice GCA at a military field.

[genkukov]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I used to do them at Ft Lewis, Grey AAF, near Tacoma, WA. They were nice about it. I know they had the capability to do them up at NAS Whidbey Is but they wouldn't let you do them. I was on SoCal approach going into ONT this week and I heard them hand a civvie off to March GCA, so that's a good sign. Not sure where else.

As far as filing, I'd file for a nearby civillian airport with an approach and when you get close ask for a practice GCA at a military field.

What time this wee were you down here in Socal? The March GCA covers the practice area for the Redlands flight school that I've been flying out of. And they're even fine with civvies doing approaches (as I did one this past week actually). Unfortunately, they don't do PARs anymore.

Well, I may see what we can do otherwise. The flight will probalby be along the coast up toward San Fran and back (or at least Monterey area). Thanks for all the advice thus far.
-Kukov

[DE727UPS]

When the guy said contact GCA I assumed it was for a PAR. Guess not....

[AlexF]

With Los Alamitos Army Airfield (KSLI) in just south of L.A. (Right at Seal Beach SLI VOR) I believe you can get a PAR if you just request it from the controller. I havn't done it yet, but sooner or later I will. In fact, I'll see if I can get one today. I'll tell you how that works.

[willc]

Not sure about PAR's on the west coast. I'm out of Pensacola, Fl and pretty much only military fields have them. Civilian airfields that have military support like ANG or CG usually have them. As for filing, in the navy we file to our last navaid which is usually co-located or one which most of the airfields approaches are defined off of. Then when we contact the respective approach just ask for a PAR/ASR. I've never had a problem getting one. Ask for a no gyro PAR thats a challenge!! Especially when you have a student controller.

[MikeD]

PARs are rapidly disappearing, as they're tough to maintain and there aren't many controllers to maintain currency. If I'm not mistaken, there are no more FAA facilities that provide PAR capability. Many still have ASR approaches available, but most PARs are going by the wayside at USAF bases due to cost. Luke AFB shut theirs down recently, and Nellis AFB stopped servicing theirs due to the inability to maintain controller currency. The Navy and Army still have many PAR facilities, mainly because USN aircraft ILS systems aren't compatible with civilian ILS systems, hence most USN aircraft are TACAN-only, with PAR as the only precision approach they can fly.

Also, the term GCA refers simply to the facility or as a generic term for a radar approach. One can't request a GCA approach without specifying whether it be an ASR or PAR, unless the field has only one or the other.

Here's my write up on GCA approach review that BobDuck referred to:

http://www.jetcareers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4099

[fo4ever]

Originally Posted by MikeD

PARs are rapidly disappearing, as they're tough to maintain and there aren't many controllers to maintain currency. If I'm not mistaken, there are no more FAA facilities that provide PAR capability. Many still have ASR approaches available, but most PARs are going by the wayside at USAF bases due to cost. Luke AFB shut theirs down recently, and Nellis AFB stopped servicing theirs due to the inability to maintain controller currency. The Navy and Army still have many PAR facilities, mainly because USN aircraft ILS systems aren't compatible with civilian ILS systems, hence most USN aircraft are TACAN-only, with PAR as the only precision approach they can fly.

Mike, do you know if Scott AFB still has a PAR?

MrMQ

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by fo4ever

Mike, do you know if Scott AFB still has a PAR?

MrMQ

Nope, no ASR/PAR at Scott that I know of. Not too many of the MAC/AMC bases had them, or have them currently, especially PAR.

[mccube5]

Originally Posted by genkukov

and also, how would I file IFR to the PAR (going to combine that with the 250 NM cross country). Your guys thoughts?
-Kukov

just as a sidenote, part 61 lays out (or 141 if youre doing it) the requirements for the long IFR x-cty, in it states that you must complete the approaches with the use of navigational aids. now correct me if im wrong but to me and others that meant either the LOC, VOR, GPS, or NDB installed in the aircraft.

A PAR approach does not incorporate your navaids only the radar that ATC uses, therefore would not satisfy the regs.

anyone else's interpretation to this is welcome, especially if you see it differently!

[adreamer]

I had been asked by ATC for ASR approach. According to what they said, ATC are required have 3 ASR approachs per quarter.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by adreamer

I had been asked by ATC for ASR approach. According to what they said, ATC are required have 3 ASR approachs per quarter.

Radar approach controllers that do ASR/PARs do have a currency to maintain in order to maintain qualification.

[DE727UPS]

"A PAR approach does not incorporate your navaids only the radar that ATC uses"

I would agree with that. Perhaps one could fit an extra approach in at a PAR that is in excess of the min requirements. They really are kinda fun.

[Rocketman99]

I dunno about not using navaids. You can argue that your mag compass and ADI are being used and aid your navigation. You're being given headings to fly and flying an approximate glideslope based on descent rate for your groundspeed while being told if you on/above/below the slope from the controller. Of course, when it comes to having to defend that to some random FAA type it might not work out so well for you...

Still, PARs are excellent training for your instrument flying and a blast to fly if you have a good controller. I would not pass up a chance to shoot one!

[mccube5]

Originally Posted by Rocketman99

I dunno about not using navaids. You can argue that your mag compass and ADI are being used and aid your navigation. You're being given headings to fly and flying an approximate glideslope based on descent rate for your groundspeed while being told if you on/above/below the slope from the controller. Of course, when it comes to having to defend that to some random FAA type it might not work out so well for you...

Still, PARs are excellent training for your instrument flying and a blast to fly if you have a good controller. I would not pass up a chance to shoot one!

Chapter 1 of the AIM is pretty specific about what is considered a NAVAID. Granted we all know that its not regulatory by nature. Your compass gives you no indication that you are on any type of course, now if your holding a heading and ATC is telling you you are on course then thats one thing, but still you are relying on their radar and have no personal reference.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by mccube5

Chapter 1 of the AIM is pretty specific about what is considered a NAVAID. Granted we all know that its not regulatory by nature. Your compass gives you no indication that you are on any type of course, now if your holding a heading and ATC is telling you you are on course then thats one thing, but still you are relying on their radar and have no personal reference.

One common thing seen is ILS with PAR backup, or PAR with ILS backup on a runway where both are co-located. Get the PAR, and fill the square too.