[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

So the other day we were flying into an undisclosed airport. The Center controller advised us around FL240 (in a descent) to maintain 300 knots for spacing. He then proceeded to hand us off to another Center controller who handed us off to an Approach controller. By this time we were level at 8,000' and still maintaining 300 knots. After a few minutes, the Approach controller called us and said we were showing 320 knots across the ground and asked if we had a HUGE tailwind. I advised him we were "assigned" 300 knots and he couldn't believe it.

My question in: Should we have slowed down to 250 at 10,000' as normal, or should we have maintained 300 as we were asked?




Nothing else was said except "resume normal speed", so I am not worried about any actions, I just am new to the jet experience so this confused me a little.

Ok, story number one, the impression here is BOTH knew they were given a speed (300 knots) BOTH knew the rule about 10,000 and 250, BOTH chose to ignore the rule and fly faster than 250. This version does not paint the picture of making a mistake and forgetting to slow below 10, or even looking up and realizing being faster than 250 and slowing down, even with an ATC query this crew (BOTH OF THEM) thought it was perfectly acceptable to be at 300 knots at 8000 feet.

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

Who said I was in a CRJ or ERJ? Who said I was a 300 hour wonder? I probably have way more hours than you, just not in a jet. I know my captain probably has your time times 5.

I know I have heard ATC "allow" people to keep their speed up below 10,000 many times, as well as request that they do. I had just personally never been in the situation.



Loss of seperation???? Because I was going faster than the regulations allow? I don't think the regulations have ANYTHING to do with my aircarft limitations.

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

Thanks for admitting that we all make mistakes, some people seem to forget that...


It is not like I don't know the 250 knot reg, I was just under the same impression as Ian that ATC could "let" you go faster than the 250. I am a new FO on a corporate jet. My captain told me (after the fact) that he was a dumbass and that we should have slowed down. I just assumed (I know, bad deal) that since he is MUCH more experienced than me that it was okay. Next time something like this happens I will question him earlier since I am more edumacated.

I asked the question so I would know the answer as this is the first time I have been in the situation of being asked to keep a speed greater than 250 while in a descent to below 10,000. Most of my time is in twin piston aircraft that are not capable of doing that.

This is the confusing one, you "know" the rule about 10,000/250 but still think it is ok to go faster than 250 below 10,000 just because ATC asked you to??? Do you know the rule or not??

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

Okay guys, thanks for beating my head into the asphault. For the record, I have stated that I (me) am new to flying in a jet. I have less than 100 hours in any airplane that is capable of flying in excess of 250 knots. I know the under 250 below 10,000 rule. I didn't (did not) realize that ATC could not allow, or ask you to exceed that speed. It seems that there is also a regulation about altitudes east and west bound, yet ATC often clears me to an odd altitude momentarily when I am flying westbound. Does my accepting that clearnence make me just as ignorant as this?

I know it is one of my responsibilities as the co-pilot to assure the captain doesn't make mistakes. That is why there are two of us. When he didn't slow at 10,000, I assumed (yes, made an ass of me) that since we had been assigned a greater speed, that we were expected to maintain it. It is not a structural issue for this plane, so all is fine with the airplane. When qeustioned about it by ATC, the first words out of the captain's mouth were, "Oh shot, we're at 8,000!" He was obviously not thinking about it for whatever reason. Once on the ground, I asked him about when we should reduce our speed in this situation and he said we should have slowed down at 10,000 as normal regardless of previous requests from ATC. He knew it, and just f'ed up.

I was asked and asked often about speeds and speed restrictions during my training. I am just now at the point of putting that rote knowledge to practical work. At NO POINT in my training, did anyone ever aske me, "Well, when can you exceed 200 within 4 nm at or below 2500' in a Class C or D? When can you exceed 250 below 10,000'?" Until today, I thought the answer to both of those questions was with ATC approval. Obviously, I was wrong. Evidentally at least one more person was too, because Ian posted the regulation and thought that ATC could approve it. We have both been corrected.

I appreciate the knowledge of my captain (him telling me afterward, after he messed up, that we should have slowed) but I know there is an abundance of knowledge here, so I posted the question. I appreciate the "corrective action" I have recieved for it, as well as exactly what I was looking for... somewhere that expounds on the regulation as we read it in Part 91 (The controller response from Omdahl).

Now I know the answer to my question so I can assure it doesn't happen again and maybe more people may have learned from my mistake, error, ignorance, or complete disregard for regulations, whatever you want to call it.

Now here is where your story changes from "We kept the speed up" to "Oh shoot, we are too fast below 10,000" Which is it? If it is the latter, hey I've done that, we all have, that is a mistake. If it is the former, guess what, hey dumbass WTF.