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Captain_Bob · June 2nd, 2005, 21:48

Hey there MrSandman,

First and foremost, welcome to JetCareers, and thank you for giving your input on ATP.

Most folks here are really trying hard to find a good flight school or even find out how to best maximize their learning at their local FBO's. In doing that we as a community try to give our experiences from a direct experience point of view. The information you provided will certainly help someone make an informed decision if you could provide a bit more detail about the situation that you refer to.

For example... how were you privy to sitting in on an initial CFI oral? Other students may want to know that so that they can do the same and maybe learn what to expect from one. No DE's that I know would allow that due to the fact that the CFI-Oral is very intense and a very personal experience for the student, so sharing your experience there would certainly help.

It certainly does sound like from your statement that the student was underprepared. It is surprising that any student having gone through any type of program at all would simply state "Well, usually they don't ask any questions and they give you the license."

Your experience with ATP will help provide the basis on which more potential pilots can make informed decisions...

ATP doesn't have any examiners on staff, and all DE's utilized by ATP are also utilized by other flight schools and FBO's. Many are current and retired airline pilots themselves, who have been trusted with examining students skills per the PTS by the FAA, and often get "line checked" if you will, by the FAA to be sure they are performing a checkride examination to standards. The beauty of this is that the DE get's to keep the fee's that are deemed practical for that geographic area, and some are up to $300+ per checkride. A good DE could make over $120,000 a year by simply working part time and doing 2 checkrides a day, 5 days a week. The DE's that I know, like most pilots I know, don't often vary from the standards that the FAA mandates... Why would they risk the great pay and the liability of signing someone off that didn't deserve it. This is where I wonder about your comments regarding not ATP... but the DE's that perform checkrides for ATP and their surrounding districts flight schools.

I feel bad for all your friends... It certainly does not seem to be the norm. However, I have known a few individuals myself who were not hired and there were specific reasons why... They may have been great sticks... but that didn't make them great instructors. This can come out in any interview at any flight school. ATP never has, and most likely never will guarantee an instructor position to a graduate of the ACPP program. But they will give you an opportunity during the 90 days to prove yourself to your instructors, dispatch, your fellow pilots, and ATP corporate. Based on that info.. hiring needs are assessed.

That is the one constant in most all the "Real" time experience posted here in JC about ATP. The program is what you make of it. Lot's of self study, self reliance, self determination, and self discipline. Many students willfully admit that they lack some of those and would prefer and do best in a program where formal ground school is part of the curriculum like Pan-Am and other 141 type schools.

Please take the time to read about others first hand and "real" time experiences here on JC in all the flight school forums and see what the schools are really like from the inside versus the outside looking in and I'm sure you will be able to help others form their opinions better. The summarization of your statement... "In summary, you will learn little to nothing with ATP--essentially all you are doing is paying for your ratings." Seems unfounded and a very intense point of view. Many on here would claim that it is flame bait and you are simply trying to get ATP's feathers up in the forums. I don't think that at all... I believe that you are simply uninformed on the process and may have heard some "stories" that you think are true. That's why I suggest taking a glance at others realtime experiences or... if your looking for flight school information and want to know what other schools are looking for and what the airlines are looking for... please PM me. I know I can help you in that regard, and if I can't, I can refer you to many students, instructors, and professional pilots who can.

Thanks again for sharing, and welcome again to JC!

Bob

June 2nd, 2005, 21:48	#5
Captain_Bob Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: DFW, based back in EWR, wishing I was in Maine Posts: 3,958	Re: 90 day program Hey there MrSandman, First and foremost, welcome to JetCareers, and thank you for giving your input on ATP. Most folks here are really trying hard to find a good flight school or even find out how to best maximize their learning at their local FBO's. In doing that we as a community try to give our experiences from a direct experience point of view. The information you provided will certainly help someone make an informed decision if you could provide a bit more detail about the situation that you refer to. For example... how were you privy to sitting in on an initial CFI oral? Other students may want to know that so that they can do the same and maybe learn what to expect from one. No DE's that I know would allow that due to the fact that the CFI-Oral is very intense and a very personal experience for the student, so sharing your experience there would certainly help. It certainly does sound like from your statement that the student was underprepared. It is surprising that any student having gone through any type of program at all would simply state "Well, usually they don't ask any questions and they give you the license." Your experience with ATP will help provide the basis on which more potential pilots can make informed decisions... ATP doesn't have any examiners on staff, and all DE's utilized by ATP are also utilized by other flight schools and FBO's. Many are current and retired airline pilots themselves, who have been trusted with examining students skills per the PTS by the FAA, and often get "line checked" if you will, by the FAA to be sure they are performing a checkride examination to standards. The beauty of this is that the DE get's to keep the fee's that are deemed practical for that geographic area, and some are up to $300+ per checkride. A good DE could make over $120,000 a year by simply working part time and doing 2 checkrides a day, 5 days a week. The DE's that I know, like most pilots I know, don't often vary from the standards that the FAA mandates... Why would they risk the great pay and the liability of signing someone off that didn't deserve it. This is where I wonder about your comments regarding not ATP... but the DE's that perform checkrides for ATP and their surrounding districts flight schools. I feel bad for all your friends... It certainly does not seem to be the norm. However, I have known a few individuals myself who were not hired and there were specific reasons why... They may have been great sticks... but that didn't make them great instructors. This can come out in any interview at any flight school. ATP never has, and most likely never will guarantee an instructor position to a graduate of the ACPP program. But they will give you an opportunity during the 90 days to prove yourself to your instructors, dispatch, your fellow pilots, and ATP corporate. Based on that info.. hiring needs are assessed. That is the one constant in most all the "Real" time experience posted here in JC about ATP. The program is what you make of it. Lot's of self study, self reliance, self determination, and self discipline. Many students willfully admit that they lack some of those and would prefer and do best in a program where formal ground school is part of the curriculum like Pan-Am and other 141 type schools. Please take the time to read about others first hand and "real" time experiences here on JC in all the flight school forums and see what the schools are really like from the inside versus the outside looking in and I'm sure you will be able to help others form their opinions better. The summarization of your statement... "In summary, you will learn little to nothing with ATP--essentially all you are doing is paying for your ratings." Seems unfounded and a very intense point of view. Many on here would claim that it is flame bait and you are simply trying to get ATP's feathers up in the forums. I don't think that at all... I believe that you are simply uninformed on the process and may have heard some "stories" that you think are true. That's why I suggest taking a glance at others realtime experiences or... if your looking for flight school information and want to know what other schools are looking for and what the airlines are looking for... please PM me. I know I can help you in that regard, and if I can't, I can refer you to many students, instructors, and professional pilots who can. Thanks again for sharing, and welcome again to JC! Bob