jetcareers - View Single Post - MikeDs GCA (ASR and PAR) approach review.

MikeD · March 19th, 2005, 04:49

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the write up Mike. Informative as always. I've shot the PAR into Yuma a few times now in both a Cessna and Seminole. Fun stuff. The first few times I had my student set the ILS up for additional course guidence but the last time we did it with just the PAR. We had a student controller who did a pretty good job I thought. One interesting thing was that when he called 4 miles from touchdown he added that there was a raised arrestor cable 1700 feet from touchdown end. I asked him to verify this but he just kept giving course guidence and never acknowledged that there was a cable. Keep in mind it was dark out. So about 1mile out I stated I was going to break off the approach unless he confirmed that the runway was clear. He stated again there was a cable and continued giving course guidence. So we ended up going missed and then entering the pattern for another runway. I'm not sure if they actually expected us to land with the cable or not... either way it as a little strange.

Ethan

[/ QUOTE ]

Check the airport diagram. At least in the NOS/NACO ones, when you see the bi-directional arrows on runways 3-21 L/R labled "E-28" at NYL, that's the location of the arresting gear cables. They're used by tailhook-equipped aircraft for wet runway landings, as well as emergency use for aircraft with brake problems. The USN E-28s are similiar to the USAF BAK-12s in that they use a series of small rubber donuts laid across the runway that support a small cable and keep it about 3 inches off the runway. Shown in this picture is a BAK-12 cable, though in this link is pictured the BAK-12 combined with the BAK-14 system that allows the BAK-12 cable to retract into a slot in the runway; whereas the normal BAK-12 has no slot and is always "in battery" (unless disconnected). On a sidenote, Tuscon International has the BAK-12/14 system on it's runway 11L/29R. To see on an actual runway where these systems are located, they're marked by painted yellow circles across the runway at the cable location, as well as a lighted sign abeam each side of the system which is a lighted yellow circle on a black background, in normal airport-signage presentation.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/content/naco...ms/00511AD.PDF
http://www.esco-usa.com/mil/bak14.html

From the FAA AC 150/5220-9:

http://www1.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...150-5220-9.pdf

So far as the NYL controller, it's their job to advise of any cables for landing aircraft, especially at USN bases. If a guy is landing with hook down, and he doesn't desire an approach-end engagement (or short-field arrestment for you Navy types), then he knows to land long by about 2000' in this case, so he can make a departure-end engagement (long-field arrestment). So far as you're concerned, you can land and have no problem, but if you land prior to the E-28 cable, just know you'll run over the cable and expect that. It won't hurt the plane at all, and definately no need to go around for fear the runway isn't clear; it's perfectly clear. NYL was one of my regular routes back in the cargo days, and I used to land on 3/21 L/R there often, rolling over the cables in C-207/208s and PA-31s, with no problem. The cable won't "bounce up" since it's strung taut between the two energy absorbers on each side of the runway. As a technique though, I'd usually land, roll over the cable with the mains, then lower the nose to the runway just to take it easy on the nose gear. That, or you can land long, since you still have 11,000+ of runway left. for takeoff though, most military towers will have civilian aircraft taxi into position and hold beyond the cable, then issue takeoff clearance. Local procedures may vary. When a Southwest Airlines 737 landed at Nellis AFB the other week, the plane slowed to nearly a crawl before crossing the departure-end BAK-12 there, then taxiied over it. I was waiting to takeoff opposite direction, and thought it rather funny, since for a large plane like that, it won't get damaged by the cables, although it might damage the cables with it's weight, so that might have been the reason. I was just annoyed at the delay.

One last thing on PARs. There's not much time to ask a question to ATC, since the final controller is guiding you down with commands about every 5 seconds. So if asking a question, it better be a good one, since the controller has enough work to do guiding you. In any event, the arresting gear is depicted on the airport diagram, so dark or not, one shouldn't really be surprised when advised by the controller of the standard piece of runway equipment that's there daily, although I can fully understand possibly not knowing if there was a particular reason he was advising you of this, or not.

March 19th, 2005, 04:49	#18
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: MikeDs GCA (ASR and PAR) approach review. [ QUOTE ] Thanks for the write up Mike. Informative as always. I've shot the PAR into Yuma a few times now in both a Cessna and Seminole. Fun stuff. The first few times I had my student set the ILS up for additional course guidence but the last time we did it with just the PAR. We had a student controller who did a pretty good job I thought. One interesting thing was that when he called 4 miles from touchdown he added that there was a raised arrestor cable 1700 feet from touchdown end. I asked him to verify this but he just kept giving course guidence and never acknowledged that there was a cable. Keep in mind it was dark out. So about 1mile out I stated I was going to break off the approach unless he confirmed that the runway was clear. He stated again there was a cable and continued giving course guidence. So we ended up going missed and then entering the pattern for another runway. I'm not sure if they actually expected us to land with the cable or not... either way it as a little strange. Ethan [/ QUOTE ] Check the airport diagram. At least in the NOS/NACO ones, when you see the bi-directional arrows on runways 3-21 L/R labled "E-28" at NYL, that's the location of the arresting gear cables. They're used by tailhook-equipped aircraft for wet runway landings, as well as emergency use for aircraft with brake problems. The USN E-28s are similiar to the USAF BAK-12s in that they use a series of small rubber donuts laid across the runway that support a small cable and keep it about 3 inches off the runway. Shown in this picture is a BAK-12 cable, though in this link is pictured the BAK-12 combined with the BAK-14 system that allows the BAK-12 cable to retract into a slot in the runway; whereas the normal BAK-12 has no slot and is always "in battery" (unless disconnected). On a sidenote, Tuscon International has the BAK-12/14 system on it's runway 11L/29R. To see on an actual runway where these systems are located, they're marked by painted yellow circles across the runway at the cable location, as well as a lighted sign abeam each side of the system which is a lighted yellow circle on a black background, in normal airport-signage presentation. http://www.naco.faa.gov/content/naco...ms/00511AD.PDF http://www.esco-usa.com/mil/bak14.html From the FAA AC 150/5220-9: http://www1.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...150-5220-9.pdf So far as the NYL controller, it's their job to advise of any cables for landing aircraft, especially at USN bases. If a guy is landing with hook down, and he doesn't desire an approach-end engagement (or short-field arrestment for you Navy types), then he knows to land long by about 2000' in this case, so he can make a departure-end engagement (long-field arrestment). So far as you're concerned, you can land and have no problem, but if you land prior to the E-28 cable, just know you'll run over the cable and expect that. It won't hurt the plane at all, and definately no need to go around for fear the runway isn't clear; it's perfectly clear. NYL was one of my regular routes back in the cargo days, and I used to land on 3/21 L/R there often, rolling over the cables in C-207/208s and PA-31s, with no problem. The cable won't "bounce up" since it's strung taut between the two energy absorbers on each side of the runway. As a technique though, I'd usually land, roll over the cable with the mains, then lower the nose to the runway just to take it easy on the nose gear. That, or you can land long, since you still have 11,000+ of runway left. for takeoff though, most military towers will have civilian aircraft taxi into position and hold beyond the cable, then issue takeoff clearance. Local procedures may vary. When a Southwest Airlines 737 landed at Nellis AFB the other week, the plane slowed to nearly a crawl before crossing the departure-end BAK-12 there, then taxiied over it. I was waiting to takeoff opposite direction, and thought it rather funny, since for a large plane like that, it won't get damaged by the cables, although it might damage the cables with it's weight, so that might have been the reason. I was just annoyed at the delay. One last thing on PARs. There's not much time to ask a question to ATC, since the final controller is guiding you down with commands about every 5 seconds. So if asking a question, it better be a good one, since the controller has enough work to do guiding you. In any event, the arresting gear is depicted on the airport diagram, so dark or not, one shouldn't really be surprised when advised by the controller of the standard piece of runway equipment that's there daily, although I can fully understand possibly not knowing if there was a particular reason he was advising you of this, or not.